Ban All Sharia Muslims From U.S. Entry-------Agree Or Disagree?

SB, one of the things that haunted my nephew when he returned home from Doctors Without Borders, was the refusal of otherwise intelligent informed people to believe anything he had to say in support of Amnesty International's claim of genocide

re Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Of course there are Palestinian terrorists, but their actions pale in comparison to the systematic torture and murder of innocent civilians by the Israelis. He was there, he saw it. But people just smile condescendingly...
 

Sunny, I intended no comparison between Netanyahu's policies and ISIL. He does not intend to conquer the world, behead innocents etc. However, he jails twelve year old children without charge, people are regularly tortured in prison, killed by soldiers with impunity. My nephew was there, one of my relatives left Israel because of what he called, "the new Nazis," he is a Jew. It broke his heart. He fought in the Yom Kippur war.
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=AP

This was in today's paper. For a bunch of "terrorists," the Israelis seem to be trying awfully hard to prevent violence.

I was particularly interested in the last part of the article, which describes the proposals of retired Israeli security chiefs to make some pretty big concessions to the Palestinians in the interest of peace.
 

Sunny said:
Debby, this stuff has been spewed by the Palestinian extremists since day one of the state of Israel, back in 1948. Read the history of the country, see who is committing an endless pattern of murder against whom, and
then decide who the terrorists are. (By "read," I mean an objective description of the country, not Palestinian propaganda.)



So, the Israelis are doing that to the Palestinians? How would you describe the many bombings and shootings at bus stops, pizza shops, shops, etc., in which defenseless civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, have been killed?
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Sunny, 'this stuff' is not what has been spewed by Palestinian extremists. You caution me to read an objective description....well I remind you that I've already said that I have made a point of NOT reading anything coming from Palestinians but have focused on writings from every other camp, including UN documents, history books, President Carters book, regional Jewish newspapers, and human rights groups like Red Cross and B'Tselem and Oxfam, etc. So I've done already, what you suggest, and the things I've said are what the experts on the ground there have found. The facts are there for all to see if they but look.

You talk of an endless pattern of murder....since 2000, there have been 9200 Palestinian murders compared to 1200 Jewish murders. Indeed, there is most definitely a pattern and it is obvious to see who is terrorizing whom and particularly if one were to include in that consideration, who is destroying homes and families, who is preventing food and water access, who is limiting in the extreme all travel and gathering, who is locking up who, which schools and hospitals are being destroyed, etc.

The attacks by Palestinians are a tragic fact. It is a terrible aspect of the ongoing struggle of an 'occupied' group against the occupier. It should not happen because innocent civilians should not pay the price of government agenda's but unfortunately, that is exactly what happens all too often. Ask yourself this, if instead of being taken away to die, if the Jewish people had been walled into the Warsaw ghetto for fifty years and deprived of food and water, homes and clothing, life and hope, what would the Jewish people have done? Would they have fought back and struggled for their freedom?

In fact, that is what they tried to do in the last days of its existence: 'At 3am on the morning of April 19, the Nazis surrounded the ghetto and the battle began. Between 2000 Germans armed with a tank, two armored cars, three light-anti-aircraft guns, one medium howitzer, heavy and light machine guns, flame throwers, rifles, pistols and grenades faced off against 700-750 Jewish resistance fighters. The Jews had managed to stockpile a few thousand grenades, as well as a few hundred rifles, revolvers and pistols. But they possessed only two or three light machine guns. The Germans planned to clear the ghetto of 60,000 Jews in three days. The Jews hoped to hold out as long as possible. ' http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX103.html

I have often wondered how it is that a people that has been so badly treated could in turn, do the same kinds of things to another group of people. And what kind of mental gymnastics are necessary in order to ignore the obvious which is that Israel has become the oppressor and the Palestinian people are emulating exactly the last ditch efforts of the prisoners in the Warsaw ghetto.

I understand how you are probably feeling when I say these things and I'm sorry if it's 'harshing your buzz', but facts are facts. And Sunny, in case you're wanting to accuse me of being an anti-semite, two things: If it was Jewish people who were being abused and marginalized, I'd be here, speaking out on their behalf and secondly, the Arab people are also a Semitic people and if B'Tselem and Jewish Voices for Peace can speak out on behalf of the Palestinians and I'm reading and accepting their observations on what's going on there, how on earth can I be an 'anti-Semite'?
 
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SeaBreeze said:
There is much censorship in the main stream media about the Israeli occupation of this land which is the cause of so much bloodshed. I am still learning about it, as years ago I didn't pay much attention. I remember a good radio show host, Reggie Rivers who was also a sports celebrity was fired from his job just for discussing the Palestinian/Israeli situation, too many political money influences behind the scenes of that radio station objected to any discussion which may uncover what was really going on there.

People seem to deny anything that tells the Palestinian side of the story, dismissing it as propaganda. The only reason I'm interested now, is because I see the powerful Israeli influence on our politics in America and don't like everything I see. Bibi Netanyahu's antics is a prime example. Some basic information here about GAZA.
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I saw a little news blurb on the 'ticker' under the new program and it said that a Canadian library (must have been the main library in Ottawa for them to bother mentioning it) said that among other complaints that it has seen in the last year was a request to remove some 'popular' book (and I can't remember the name) because it was too graphic and another request to remove a documentary video about a Palestinian woman's life. So even in Canada, there is a move to silence a story because it probably runs contrary to the narrative that's being promoted everywhere in the mainstream media.

I started getting interested in all of this because I heard how a Palestinian MP in the Knesset walked out on my Prime Ministers speech when he was there in Israel and speaking before their government. I was so surprised and decided to find out why he would do that. Now I understand.
 
I did some research on the wall that the Israeli's are in the process of completing and to be very honest, the offer at the end of the article sounds like it is more of the same philosophy of containment and segregation and entirely to the benefit of the Israeli's. While it's 'decent' of Israel to allow access to their mosque to the Palastinians for the duration of Ramadan, the wall that's being discussed at the end, almost encircle's some P. villages, cuts others in half, blocks access to P. farms, veers off the 1948 borders into 'P. land' and has been found by the UN Security Council plus other agencies, to be in contravention of International Law and the Fourth Geneva Convention.

There are lots of details to the issue of that wall and rather than make mistakes in relaying the information that is pertinent, I'm just going to place the link here for any who want to take a look at it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier

Those 'pretty big concessions' aren't actually that wonderful when you start looking at the details. To his credit, even George W. Bush had a few things to say to Netanyahu that were not supportive at all of the Israeli decision to build that barrier wherever it trespasses onto Palestinian land and stated that it should be only a temporary construction even as a more equitable road to peace is worked out. And of course one of the major issues to be dealt with will be the ongoing construction of settlements in land that had been set apart for the Palestinian people in 1948. The construction of those settlements contravenes the Geneva Convention as when an occupying force invades a land, the Geneva convention states that the occupier (Israel) is not allowed to transfer their own people into that land to take it over.

I don't think anyone would suggest that Israeli's shouldn't be safe in their homes. But I also think that the troubles with the Palestinian's who are attacking and fighting back against the occupation are troubles that Israel has brought on itself. For years now, there have been peace rallies in towns and villages throughout Israel. But instead of 'rewarding' those people with a reduction in IDF raids and settler assaults and improvement of access to food, water, medical and educational services, Israel meets them with rubber bullets and water cannons. It is hard to see those actions as conducive to peace.
 
Thanks SeaBreeze. I just started watching it and it's interesting. Gives you an inside look at life in Ramallah. But it's late here (11:30PM) so I'm going to finish watching it tomorrow.

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Well half way through and I can see why some would want to make the video disappear. Not because it's got graphic violence but because it moves the narrative away from 'Palestinians are all terrorists' to 'Palestinians are moms and dads and little kids and people just like us'. Its harder to oppress and blow to smithereens, 'people just like us' and have the world look kindly and with support, on Israel's efforts.
 
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When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.

I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.

Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.
 
Redd said:
When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.

I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.

Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.
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I live in a community with a HUGE Muslim population.. I shop in a grocery store selling Halal food.. Would you even KNOW what Halal food is? Would it taste different? The meat tastes the same to me... IT's BEEF and CHICKEN.. eating it has not made me "pray with my butt in the air". I am in contact with Middle Eastern people every day.. No one is rude or cutting in front of me.. I have Middle Eastern neighbors. They live like everyone else.. maintain their property and don't affect me in the least. I also have Hindu neighbors.. Stop the fear mongering.
 
Redd said:
When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.

I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.

Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.
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Not true. Dearborn schools offer Halal alternatives. None of the schools offer only Halal. And the only website I found that said so had a photo of Cruz and Palin on the header, so you know that's lies.
 
Redd said:
When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.

I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.

Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.
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I went to a mall in Calgary with my daughter last year and it was amazing and like the United Nations! The world is changing and we might as well accept that society is evolving. And if we want access to all parts of the world with our goods and travel, then it's a foregone conclusion that the world will be coming here. Time to relax and enjoy the variety. And if some folks don't exactly match our notion of what's the right way to do things, make an effort to get along anyway. Because who ever said 'ours' is the only way things should be done. As for the cutting in line, etc., I've seen any number of white Canadians doing exactly the same thing as I've gone through life. It's not a 'brown' issue or a 'white' issue, it's a people issue.
 
Debby said:
The world is changing and we might as well accept y. And if some folks don't exactly match our notion of what's the right way to do things, make an effort to get along anyway. Because who ever said 'ours' is the only way things should be done. As for the cutting in line, etc., I've seen any number of white Canadians doing exactly the same thing as I've gone through life. It's not a 'brown' issue or a 'white' issue, it's a people issue.
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I can agree with you on some of what you say Debby. This country was built on immigrants that had different ways than ours but their core values were somewhat the same. I have to ask if you would eat a meal prepared by someone that refused to use soap to wash their hands after using the toilet as there might be alcohol in the solution.

I must agree with you that there are rude home grown Canadians that are pushy too. The difference is that I could voice an objection to their behavior. To a Muslim you simply cannot and they sense this and play on it.

It bothers me that I felt I had to quit a volunteer job at a food bank. My choice but I simply could not go on watching food provided by members of a predominately white church be hand delivered to Muslim families while elderly white clients were made to take a bus or get a ride to get their food. The reason was simply that these Muslim women were not allowed out unaccompanied so they insisted on delivery as their husbands were working. I had to give my head a shake as to why it is all right for these same women to travel in groups of other women to go shopping.
 
I haven't been in a mall for years, but last time I was it was crowded with young people. I live in the uptown inner city and my experiences are similarly lacking in contact with Muslim customers in shops and streets, except maybe with the dollar store proprietors. But I have no doubt that in the suburban areas where the communities are more dense my experience would probably be very different and I wouldn't want to discount someone's story, since I don't live there. On crowded subways certain ethnic patrons do push and elbow their way into the cars ahead of everyone else, since maybe that's how they did it back where they came from. Sticking to this forum's party line of being overly sympathetic is nice, but not always realistic.
 
Peeps is peeps. I work with Muslim colleagues, have Muslim clients, socialise with Muslims. Some are refugees, some are homegrown. They are no more or less perfect that anyone else. There are soaps readily available which do not contain alcohol,


you can find enclaves of most ethnic groups anywhere where the population is large enough to permit. Rude and pushy come in all human varieties. So do kind and compassionate. For the moment, Islamophobia is the flavour of the week/month/year. Ultimately, there is only one race, the human race. There is no "them," only "us."
 
Shalimar said:
Peeps is peeps. I work with Muslim colleagues, have Muslim clients, socialise with Muslims. Some are refugees, some are homegrown. They are no more or less perfect that anyone else. There are soaps readily available which do not contain alcohol,


you can find enclaves of most ethnic groups anywhere where the population is large enough to permit. Rude and pushy come in all human varieties. So do kind and compassionate. For the moment, Islamophobia is the flavour of the week/month/year. Ultimately, there is only one race, the human race. There is no "them," only "us."
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Yes, we are all the human race! Can you imagine if dogs had caninephobia of some sort. There would be Rottwielers walking around saying "I'm not going to let my pups play with those shih tzus because I don't like the way their butt smells!" Or a Collie saying "I don't like what those German Shepards eat, I will only eat Spam!"
 
Shalimar said:
Peeps is peeps. I work with Muslim colleagues, have Muslim clients, socialise with Muslims. Some are refugees, some are homegrown. They are no more or less perfect that anyone else. There are soaps readily available which do not contain alcohol,


you can find enclaves of most ethnic groups anywhere where the population is large enough to permit. Rude and pushy come in all human varieties. So do kind and compassionate. For the moment, Islamophobia is the flavour of the week/month/year. Ultimately, there is only one race, the human race. There is no "them," only "us."
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Yes!
 
Redd said:
...Those who welcome them [Muslims] have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.
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Well, since one of my best friends is a Turkish Muslim, and our area (the San Francisco Bay Area, NorCA) has one of the LARGEST Muslim populations in the U.S., I'd have to say my experience has been very different than yours.

Pushing ahead in line? Try going to France, it's an art form there.

Do you believe all those stories about how polite the Japanese are? Try working with Japanese male executives, as I did at one of our local banks. You could always tell the newly transferred-to-the-U.S. Bank of Tokyo execs, they practically flattened all the women, both Japanese and American, elbowing their way into the elevator first! It was actually pretty funny (and I'm Japanese-American).

My Hong Kong-born spouse used to wince at my behavior with his parents. Compared to Asian behavior my American attitudes were crass, rude, and borderline obnoxious.

My culture is no better than yours, and neither one is better than any other. They're just different...and a little understanding of that can go a very long way.
 
Lethe200 said:
Well, since one of my best friends is a Turkish Muslim, and our area (the San Francisco Bay Area, NorCA) has one of the LARGEST Muslim populations in the U.S., I'd have to say my experience has been very different than yours.

Pushing ahead in line? Try going to France, it's an art form there.

Do you believe all those stories about how polite the Japanese are? Try working with Japanese male executives, as I did at one of our local banks. You could always tell the newly transferred-to-the-U.S. Bank of Tokyo execs, they practically flattened all the women, both Japanese and American, elbowing their way into the elevator first! It was actually pretty funny (and I'm Japanese-American).

My Hong Kong-born spouse used to wince at my behavior with his parents. Compared to Asian behavior my American attitudes were crass, rude, and borderline obnoxious.

My culture is no better than yours, and neither one is better than any other. They're just different...and a little understanding of that can go a very long way.
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Well said!
 
lethe200 said:
well, since one of my best friends is a turkish muslim, and our area (the san francisco bay area, norca) has one of the largest muslim populations in the u.s., i'd have to say my experience has been very different than yours.

Pushing ahead in line? Try going to france, it's an art form there.

Do you believe all those stories about how polite the japanese are? Try working with japanese male executives, as i did at one of our local banks. You could always tell the newly transferred-to-the-u.s. Bank of tokyo execs, they practically flattened all the women, both japanese and american, elbowing their way into the elevator first! It was actually pretty funny (and i'm japanese-american).

My hong kong-born spouse used to wince at my behavior with his parents. Compared to asian behavior my american attitudes were crass, rude, and borderline obnoxious.

My culture is no better than yours, and neither one is better than any other. They're just different...and a little understanding of that can go a very long way.
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qft.
 
Lon said:
Since Muslims of the Sharia persuasion believe that Sharia Law supercedes all other laws why would we ever want to allow them entry?
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Original poster's question might be considered rather contentious and inviting argument, as not allowing Muslim immigrants or other immigrants based on their religion is unconstitutional in U.S. as well as in Canada, no matter what anyone thinks, is it not so?
 
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