Biology defines woman - maybe this is the best answer.

fuzzybuddy said:
Everybody believes that if you look between someone's legs, you can determine if the person is male or female., that's true, but not always. Biology is always a range of outcomes. And being male or female is also a host of hormones, developmental issues, and emotional issues. Again, with all these factors, there is an enormous range of outcomes.
I think this post is in regard to "men" in women's sports. When you have a segregated sport by gender, it's up to the officials in that sport to determine what they mean by "male"/"female". Even if you use the "looking between the legs" test, there are some with both, none, or modified.
Yes, life gets more complicated every day.
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We're technologically more advanced than that and can easily use genetics. For those few who aren't predominately XX or XY, then sports officials can weigh in.
 
Murrmurr said:
Are you distinguishing "sex" from "gender"? Sex being biological and anatomical?
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Chris P Bacon said:
No
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@Chris P Bacon -- Keeping in mind the fast pace of medical care and the fact that birth sex impacts medical health throughout the lifespan, what's your terminology solution to ensure that birth sex is easily identified by practitioners so that physical illness associated with birth sex aren't missed?
 
Lewkat said:
Please spare me. The most respected authority in defining gender is a medical or biological dictionary.
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Consider it done. Which medical or biological dictionary is the most authoritative though? I’d imagine that there must be more than one. I’d hate to get my facts wrong again. You seem to feel you’re an expert on the subject so do share your expert knowledge. Miriam-Webster has one but you say their definitions are no good. From the few other medical non Merriam-Webster-Webster medical dictionaries I’m able to find, their definitions seem to correlate what I found n my first search. I’m not saying that you may have knowledge that I do not but I will say that you may have opinions and biases that I do not. Please do share your sources of reference?
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Consider it done. Which medical or biological dictionary is the most authoritative though? I’d imagine that there must be more than one. I’d hate to get my facts wrong again. You seem to feel you’re an expert on the subject so do share your expert knowledge. Miriam-Webster has one but you say their definitions are no good. From the few other medical non Merriam-Webster-Webster medical dictionaries I’m able to find, their definitions seem to correlate what I found n my first search. I’m not saying that you may have knowledge that I do not but I will say that you may have opinions and biases that I do not. Please do share your sources of reference?
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Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.
 
AnnieA said:
@Chris P Bacon -- Keeping in mind the fast pace of medical care and the fact that birth sex impacts medical health throughout the lifespan, what's your terminology solution to ensure that birth sex is easily identified by practitioners so that physical illness associated with birth sex aren't missed?
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I defer to the experts. I believe in shades of gray. It seems that nothing is easily determined these days. I just don’t see what the fuss is all about. But I do see it as being more against men who feel that their correct and true gender is female. Newborns don’t cause as much discord as adults. When speaking of men and women, I’m not thinking about babies.
 
Murrmurr said:
Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.
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Merck Manual is another highly regarded source. Here's a screen shot of the first results for "male" from the consumer version of Merck. I don't have an online professional subscription (have a hard copy of the book).

MerckMale.JPG
 
Murrmurr said:
"Sex" is anatomical. "Gender" is physiological but also recognized as psychological and sociological. You won't find the latter in Grey's Anatomy.
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Well you’ll get no argument about any of that from me. But a self professed expert here told me that that wasn’t true. Maybe they’ll tell you too but I’m too tired to defend my position any more right now. I trust the definition I found in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. That I can only find that or nearly similar definitions in other dictionaries settles it for me. If a person can get the letter on their birth certificate changed from M to F, or vice versa, that should mean something, somehow. What would I know anyway? I identify as a pig but a genderless asexual one.
 
Murrmurr said:
Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.
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Grey’s Anatomy is a television show, I knew but you may not. Gray’s Anatomy, which I also knew, is a respected medical reference work. One little letter can sure cause a lot of confusion, can’t it though? Better double check that though because, I reiterate, I’m not an expert on these things.
 
Chris P Bacon said:
I defer to the experts. I believe in shades of gray. It seems that nothing is easily determined these days. I just don’t see what the fuss is all about. ...When speaking of men and women, I’m not thinking about babies.
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Not many people here are going to fuss about gender identity and are open to shades of gray. A few will, but on the whole this is an open-minded group. I mention "birth female" and "birth male" in posts referring to physical sex from a medical standpoint since for appx 98% of humans, biologic sex is easily determined at birth.

I asked you how medical practitioners should identify sex and you said you defer to experts. Two highly regarded expert sources are listed above: Grey's Anatomy and Merck Manual.

Here's what Merck has to say about the terminology:

Excerpt:

Concepts of Sex and Gender

Various terms are used to talk about sex and gender. Sex and gender are not the same thing.
  • Sex refers to a person's biologic status: male, female, or intersex.
  • Sexual identity refers to the sex to which a person is sexually attracted (if any).
  • Gender refers to a person's public, lived role as boy or girl, man or woman.
  • Gender identity is the subjective sense of knowing to which gender one belongs; that is, whether people regard themselves as male, female, transgender, or another identifying term (for example, genderqueer, nonbinary, agender).
  • Gender role is the objective, public expression of gender identity and includes everything that people say and do to indicate to themselves and to others the degree to which they are the gender with which they identify.
 
AnnieA said:
Not many people here are going to fuss about gender identity and are open to shades of gray. A few will, but on the whole this is an open-minded group. I mention birth in posts about biological sex from a medical standpoint since for appx 98% of humans, biologic sex is easily determined at birth.

I asked you how medical practitioners should identify sex and you defer to experts. Two good expert sources are listed above: Grey's Anatomy and Merck Manual.

Here's what Merck has to say about the terminology:

Excerpt:

Concepts of Sex and Gender

Various terms are used to talk about sex and gender. Sex and gender are not the same thing.
  • Sex refers to a person's biologic status: male, female, or intersex.
  • Sexual identity refers to the sex to which a person is sexually attracted (if any).
  • Gender refers to a person's public, lived role as boy or girl, man or woman.
  • Gender identity is the subjective sense of knowing to which gender one belongs; that is, whether people regard themselves as male, female, transgender, or another identifying term (for example, genderqueer, nonbinary, agender).
  • Gender role is the objective, public expression of gender identity and includes everything that people say and do to indicate to themselves and to others the degree to which they are the gender with which they identify.
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Actually, Grey’s Anatomy is a television show but I’m sure you knew that. And your quoted definition of gender doesn’t seem determinable from just bones. Male and female at birth, yes, that possibly can be. But the role lived would seem indeterminable from only bones. I guess they don’t spell sex and gender the same way is because they aren’t the same things.
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Actually, Grey’s Anatomy is a television show but I’m sure you knew that. And your quoted definition of gender doesn’t seem determinable from just bones. Male and female at birth, yes, that possibly can be. But the role lived would seem indeterminable from only bones. I guess they don’t spell sex and gender the same way is because they aren’t the same things.
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The television show name is a play on the title of the textbook. You're smart enough to figure that out just from this thread ...more intelligent than most people on this board imo. And I'm not the poster that spoke of bones determining gender or sex ...think that was an archaeological reference?

My quoted definitions are from an expert medical source (Merck Manual) which is what you stated you defer to. @Murrmurr provided similar info from Grey's. If you can find an allopathic or osteopathic medical school that doesn't list these as required textbooks, I'm interested in learning what is used in their place.
 
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Thank you for your kind words and also for your reccomendations for further research. But I’ve been on my feet for far too long today and these heels are killing my feet right now. Maybe after I’ve relaxed in a bubble bath and slipped into something more comfortable, I’ll regain interest then. But for now, I’m onto different, more easily understood topics. Thanks again!
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Everybody believes that if you look between someone's legs, you can determine if the person is male or female. Generally, that's true, but not always. Biology is always a range of outcomes. And being male or female is also a host of hormones, developmental issues, and emotional issues. Again, with all these factors, there is an enormous range of outcomes.
I think this post is in regard to "men" in women's sports. When you have a segregated sport by gender, it's up to the officials in that sport to determine what they mean by "male"/"female". Even if you use the "looking between the legs" test, there are some with both, none, or modified.
Yes, life gets more complicated every day.
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I saw nothing in @chic's OP to indicate that her focus was on transgender women (i.e. born male physically) in women's sports but i could be wrong.

I do agree that when it comes to competitions this is something for the sports officials need to think about and form guidelines about. But then sports have never been high on my list of priorities and interests.
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Bones don’t determine gender. Gender is more about social and cultural differences than biological ones.
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Horse s**t. It’s about chromosomes and the bone structure and body features that result. It’s ALL about biology. And nothing else. You’re trying to change the language. Maybe you need a new word for whatever you’re talking about, but in my world there are two genders and it’s easy to figure out which is which.
 
In my opinion, the difference is how men differ from women by how they do things. For example, women think with their brains while men use a different part of their body that decides how they think and I am sure you all know what part that is. 🙃
 
Chris P Bacon said:
Grey’s Anatomy is a television show, I knew but you may not. Gray’s Anatomy, which I also knew, is a respected medical reference work. One little letter can sure cause a lot of confusion, can’t it though? Better double check that though because, I reiterate, I’m not an expert on these things.
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Yes, the reference book is Gray's, written by Henry Gray. The color grey is spelled grey, and Earl Grey tea is spelled grey and I'm pretty familiar with those two greys. ;)
 
Trish said:
In my view, if we are talking about gender, clearly men and women's bodies and genetic make-up are very different and it is those differences which define us. I am refraining from taking the conversation too far as I am not sure if that is the subject of this thread :)
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Please elaborate on the physical differences in great detail.
 
Sassycakes said:
In my opinion, the difference is how men differ from women by how they do things. For example, women think with their brains while men use a different part of their body that decides how they think and I am sure you all know what part that is. 🙃
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Funny you should mention that.
Many women (including my ex wife) also think with a similar part of their body in a similar location. I'm sure you know what part that is.
 
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