Bullies, and the excuses put forward for their behaviour

About bullying- I don't think there's any 'constants' in the formula that can predict which way a person's behavior will turn. That said, it occurs to me that a strong case could be made that bullies at some point have self-esteem deficits, which they try to boost, at someone else's expense. I do think some bullies seek to victimize others because they themselves had been bullied.

I witnessed my former son-in-law being rough with his son for crying...wanted to make him "toughen up". I'm sure his father did the same thing to him, insanity being passed from generation to generation. <shakes head>
I've seen my former foster son's father do the same to him and it's obviously effecting him. Right now, at 2 1/2, Collin is showing signs of depression. At some point that will change and he'll either become aggressive or timid. Can't say for sure but I suspect his father will encourage aggression.
 

About bullying- I don't think there's any 'constants' in the formula that can predict which way a person's behavior will turn. That said, it occurs to me that a strong case could be made that bullies at some point have self-esteem deficits, which they try to boost, at someone else's expense. I do think some bullies seek to victimize others because they themselves had been bullied.

I witnessed my former son-in-law being rough with his son for crying...wanted to make him "toughen up". I'm sure his father did the same thing to him, insanity being passed from generation to generation. <shakes head>
They definately have self esteem issues. The drunk 'bully' here has grooming products all over the place. When he lived at home he almost 3 dozen bottles of product in one bathroom AND stuff in his rooms, boxes, bags etc. Ran out of places to put it. He would blow a gasket if you moved it. Then one day while prepping the house for sale and him whining all day they started sweating hair die. From a butt hat he turned deer in the head lights and bolted to the bathroom. Pathetic actually because their whole life is act complete w make up and costume.

Had bosses with Napoleon complexes when given bad new also deer in headlight yet the employees berated with regularity.
 
About bullying- I don't think there's any 'constants' in the formula that can predict which way a person's behavior will turn. That said, it occurs to me that a strong case could be made that bullies at some point have self-esteem deficits, which they try to boost, at someone else's expense. I do think some bullies seek to victimize others because they themselves had been bullied.

I witnessed my former son-in-law being rough with his son for crying...wanted to make him "toughen up". I'm sure his father did the same thing to him, insanity being passed from generation to generation. <shakes head>
First of all I must say I totally deplore bullies, for many reasons...I agree with some of the things said in this thread but disagree with others. Now, let me tell you about that boy in question who bullied my son. As we moved and years passed, he with a group of five (his support group/friends) showed up at a clinic I was working in (this was decades ago), and stated that the hospital told him to come. Then, he and his group went to the waiting room and sat down. He did not recognize me but I recognized him. I rushed to the lab to check the fax machine and sure enough one was just coming in from the hospital. This young man had attempted and failed to commit suicide. His issues had never left him. I wonder today whether he is still alive. Interestingly enough, he trained to be a wrestler. I still agree with the statement, "You are not born a bully...you learn to be a bully". Empathy will always be needed in this troubled world...I hope this fellow has dealt with his issues and found a better path.
 

First of all I must say I totally deplore bullies, for many reasons...I agree with some of the things said in this thread but disagree with others. Break
. I still agree with the statement, "You are not born a bully...you learn to be a bully". Empathy will always be needed in this troubled world...I hope this fellow has dealt with his issues and found a better path.
Other than it being the view of the expert I found on a psychology website what proof can you point to demonstrating no child ever being born who was prone to bulling others, or with that aspect to their character?
 
Can I suggest a new definition for bullying, or at least put forward this thought(?).

Could bullying be considered as any situation where someone is subjected to yes physical abuse and can't fight backback, (for whatever reason), but also in an admittedly mild sense, someone being subjected to unfair criticism where to fight back is difficult or impossible, or you can't win by attempting to fight back?
 
Can I suggest a new definition for bullying, or at least put forward this thought(?).

Could bullying be considered as any situation where someone is subjected to yes physical abuse and can't fight backback, (for whatever reason), but also in an admittedly mild sense, someone being subjected to unfair criticism where to fight back is difficult or impossible, or you can't win by attempting to fight back?
It's a pity there isn't more advice for those living with a bully. People who have difficulty expressing themselves very often resort to bullying as a way to prove their dominance over others. How do you deal with such a person? Why aren't parents given more advice about how to cope with an aggressive toddler?
 
It's a pity there isn't more advice for those living with a bully. People who have difficulty expressing themselves very often resort to bullying as a way to prove their dominance over others. How do you deal with such a person? Why aren't parents given more advice about how to cope with an aggressive toddler?
I'd suggest it isn't advice that really counts, because no one can really tell a parent how to love their own child can they, and there is little doubt in my mind this is the crucial element in all our lives, and I guess I'll keep insisting those who assume no child is born with the traits bred in them to bully others isn't choosing to face reality, (to take the argument to the extreme or "absurdia" one could then put forward the proposition all the monstrous figures from history could have been straightened out if their parents had a bit better advice to assist them!).

Here is text from another website loosely related to my comments above, and below another link slightly more relevant:

Quote:
"Absurdism, a philosophy most attributed to Albert Camus, takes as central the absurd desire for humans to seek inherent value despite the meaninglessness of the world (nihilism). Absurdism further argues that all attempts to find meaning, either inherent or from one's self (existentialism), will ultimately fail but we should embrace the Absurd (the contradictory co-existence of the value-seeking human mind and the valueless world) and defiantly seek meaning anyway. The search itself is meaningful."

If Only Hitler's Father Had Been Nicer​

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/27/books/if-only-hitler-s-father-had-been-nicer.html
Quote:
".........Miller continued to advance her key beliefs -- namely, that all artistic endeavor is purely compensatory, rather than an expression of innate creativity, and that all the world's ills, including the existence of tyrannical leaders, can be traced back to tormented childhoods. In her second book, ''For Your Own Good,'' she used the example of Hitler's brutal treatment at the hands of his martinet father -- as well as the recollections of authoritarian upbringings by high-ranking SS officers -- to explore the human fallout of what she termed ''poisonous pedagogy.'' This was a style of child-rearing derived from a popular series of 19th-century manuals written by Daniel Schreber, a German doctor (whose son, a paranoid judge, wrote a memoir that became the basis of one of Freud's early case studies), which emphasized breaking the child's will at the earliest moment. The advice that Miller quotes is indeed hair-raising, but her sense of righteous horror seems to overlook the fact that the whole notion of children having rights of their own, worthy of respect and protection, is itself not much more than a century old."
Break
"...she asserts that battered children store memories of corporal punishment in their bodies, which later cause them to take revenge -- sometimes (as in the case of Hitler, Stalin and Mao) in a global fashion. One of the frustrations of reading this writer has always been her free and easy way of appropriating other people's research. In this case the issue is less whether these sorts of mind-body interactions are possible (I tend to think they are) than the enormously speculative use that Miller makes of findings that are uncertain to begin with. She attributes all manner of illness, including intestinal disorders and autism, to repression and denial."
 
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I've seen my former foster son's father do the same to him and it's obviously effecting him. Right now, at 2 1/2, Collin is showing signs of depression. At some point that will change and he'll either become aggressive or timid. Can't say for sure but I suspect his father will encourage aggression.
Collin's dad is in the picture? That doesn't seem healthy for you. Please be careful, I'm sure you are, just want to reinforce that.
 
Other than it being the view of the expert I found on a psychology website what proof can you point to demonstrating no child ever being born who was prone to bulling others, or with that aspect to their character?
Bullying can be defined many ways, as it’s a form of abuse be it towards other children, spouses and, of course, elders.

It’s not that no one is prone to bullying; as Jordan Peterson has said, the most aggressive people on the planet are two-year-olds who bite, hit, kick, ignore personal boundaries, throw their spoon and dish to the floor, etc., it’s that mere aggressiveness only hardens into a pattern of bullying when the child learns that there are no consequences to it. Indulgent or neglectful parents, or parents who themselves are abusive, can teach the child that bullying is a valid way to be; or parents can nip it in the bud.

Bullies can be found everywhere in history, but not all societies produce the same number of them. I read somewhere that it used to be good sport to trip blind people, etc., in the Middle Ages when blindness was viewed as a curse by God. Now who would think to do such a thing?

Unfortunately now, so to speak, a “blind eye” has often been cast on potential bullying problems for the simple reason of a familiar chant from mostly mothers, from my readings and experiences that their “little Johnny would never do such a thing,” that “he is a good boy!” I still hold to my statement that bullies are not born being bullies, but learn that their aggressive impulses can be embraced, turning them into a chronic bully, and some sooner than others for various reasons.
 
We are born with distinct personalities however. In my forties, I think it was, I realized All the people I had ever known since infancy retained the same personality they had as babies.

Some people are aggressive, but that doesn't mean they will become bullies, although might be prone to it.

Just a thought.
 
We are born with distinct personalities however. In my forties, I think it was, I realized All the people I had ever known since infancy retained the same personality they had as babies.
Some people are aggressive, but that doesn't mean they will become bullies, although might be prone to it.
Just a thought.
I have not been able to read this whole article, but I think it talks about predispositions in a survey of 1,500 children to being bullies:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/bullies-are-born-and-not-made-1079488.html

Quote:
"6 Oct 2015 — CHILDREN WHO bully others are likely to have inherited a genetic predisposition for their antisocial behaviour, according to a study of 1500 ...."

Another view:
https://www.bravenewchild.org/exhibits/are-we-born-to-bully/

Yet more:
https://authorkristenlamb.com/2014/...o-bully-born-to-be-victims-can-it-be-changed/
 
Collin's dad is in the picture? That doesn't seem healthy for you. Please be careful, I'm sure you are, just want to reinforce that.
He gets 2 overnight visits every week, one weekday and one weekend day, when he stays at Collin's mom's house. When Collin stays the weekend with me, usually Fri through Sun or Mon, both his parents are with him when they pick him up. Also, over the 30 months that Collin lived with me, both his parents had visitation; 2x/week for 2 hours; and those visits took place here at my home. They showed up sporadically when they were still struggling with their addiction, and then they stooped visiting altogether for many months, but that's another story. ANYWAY, I got to know the father a little bit. Polite guy, kind of soft-spoken, seemed to love his kids, but he didn't seem very bright. He didn't seem to know what he was doing (has no other children), and took direction from Collin's mom.

Three toddlers taken from the people they knew as parents, from secure loving homes, and suddenly dropped into a different home with different parents and suddenly siblings - to me, the whole situation is unhealthy.
 
Bullying can be defined many ways, as it’s a form of abuse be it towards other children, spouses and, of course, elders.
It’s not that no one is prone to bullying; as Jordan Peterson has said, the most aggressive people on the planet are two-year-olds who bite, hit, kick, ignore personal boundaries, throw their spoon and dish to the floor, etc., it’s that mere aggressiveness only hardens into a pattern of bullying when the child learns that there are no consequences to it. Indulgent or neglectful parents, or parents who themselves are abusive, can teach the child that bullying is a valid way to be; or parents can nip it in the bud.

Bullies can be found everywhere in history, but not all societies produce the same number of them. I read somewhere that it used to be good sport to trip blind people, etc., in the Middle Ages when blindness was viewed as a curse by God. Now who would think to do such a thing?

Unfortunately now, so to speak, a “blind eye” has often been cast on potential bullying problems for the simple reason of a familiar chant from mostly mothers, from my readings and experiences that their “little Johnny would never do such a thing,” that “he is a good boy!” I still hold to my statement that bullies are not born being bullies, but learn that their aggressive impulses can be embraced, turning them into a chronic bully, and some sooner than others for various reasons.
I must say I can't remember my two year old daughter being aggressive at all, hence the argument as to the trouble starting when she didn't learn at that age there were boundaries, or didnt learn there were consequences did not apply, (I doubt she's the only one no matter what Jordan Peterson might say on the matter)! :)
 
Can I expand my definition of bullying still further, by proposing anyone attempting to force their ideas on another may be guilty of bullying?

I say "may" because I'm aware many very good citizens do try to form or mould the minds of their children in their own image. My own brother, who has five grown up children, certainly did his best to foster his ideas in their minds, but having said that I'm sure at times he'd be opposed by his wife, who might well have being prepared to mould her children into to her way of thinking too, (so a healthy balance was struck!).

However, whilst I'm sure I like it when others agree with me, the obvious and ironic example being as to whether some bullies might be born that way, I hope I can't be accused of being a forum bully, (though I may wear you down by repetition of my arguments! :). ).
 
Does it matter... everyday we can read or hear about some study that says this or that. I would not feel better if I was being bullied ........knowing it may have been genetic or taught by a bad parent etc.
Same for "they have problems or low self esteem etc" ... why do we spend so much time and resources to try to explain why someone might be a jerk.

I do not know when the everyone is a victim and they are not responsible for their own issues mentality started but it is time to move on and embrace personal responsibility again.
 
@grahamg
I agree. Forcing one's ideas upon a child is bullying.
Or "good parenting" sometimes, if you dont wish everyone's parenting putting under the microscope all the time, you have to leave it to individuals to do what is best for their own kids largely, and the children themselves will come to sift the good from the bad one day wont they, s long as its not too overdone(?).
 
I must say I can't remember my two year old daughter being aggressive at all, hence the argument as to the trouble starting when she didn't learn at that age there were boundaries, or didnt learn there were consequences did not apply, (I doubt she's the only one no matter what Jordan Peterson might say on the matter)! :)
The articles you linked to were interesting and the twin study eye-opening. I, and Peterson would agree, don't think every two-year-old is aggressive, just that as a demographic they are the most aggressive, so I should have clarified that. I would agree with the following statement from your first article:

"Scientists believe the findings show for the first time that an inclination towards bullying and other types of childhood aggression can be inherited, although they stress that the predisposition may be countered by changes to the way a child is raised."
 
I've seen my former foster son's father do the same to him and it's obviously effecting him. Right now, at 2 1/2, Collin is showing signs of depression. At some point that will change and he'll either become aggressive or timid. Can't say for sure but I suspect his father will encourage aggression.
I would not predict or impose a personality type on such a young child. I had a terrible family life, as have many on the forum, and yet I have never been very aggressive. I was shy when younger, but when I realized the only people who were going to beat me were my parents, I outgrew that shyness.

I do admit to being somewhat cautious for a long time but outgrew that as well, unfortunately.
 
I would not predict or impose a personality type on such a young child. I had a terrible family life, as have many on the forum, and yet I have never been very aggressive. I was shy when younger, but when I realized the only people who were going to beat me were my parents, I outgrew that shyness.

I do admit to being somewhat cautious for a long time but outgrew that as well, unfortunately.
I'm hopeful that his early up-bringing will always influence his behavior even if slightly.
 
In real life I’m not a bully however I’ve been a bully to some people on this forum. I’ve apologized to most of them. It’s a horrible thing to do. It’s living life unconsciously and irresponsibility. All I can do is ask for forgiveness and learn from my mistakes to do better.
I have no excuses. I didn’t however get pleasure from it. Far from it.
 
In real life I’m not a bully however I’ve been a bully to some people on this forum. I’ve apologized to most of them. It’s a horrible thing to do. It’s living life unconsciously and irresponsibility. All I can do is ask for forgiveness and learn from my mistakes to do better.
I have no excuses. I didn’t however get pleasure from it. Far from it.
If you say so then I suppose I must accept it, but just let me say I don't think I've witnessed any bullying on your behalf! :)
 


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