I'm not trying to be rude my friend, But......................you don't have a family to divest for so they can invest in their lives. It is not right, IMO, to sacrifice their inheritance, especially at our levels here. It doesn't feel like anyone here is ultra wealthy, but worked hard for their families. Ask that to the people so rich they pay no tax whatsoever for anything anywhere. My .02 cents.
Can anyone get in a nursing home?
- Thread starter Robert59
- Start date
Yes you are, but you know that. There is no lack of understanding the law. You are planning on sheltering your money to avoid using it for your own care, and forcing us honest taxpayers to pay for your care. And that is on you.
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Again, like some others on here, you are simply trying to avoid using your own assets/money to pay for your own care, and expect me and other honest tax payers to pick up the tab. And your children are not entitled to an inheritance at the expense of us honest taxpayers.
So according to you, I'm "....trying (as in actively attempting) to avoid using (my) own assets/money to pay for (my) own care, and expect (you) and other honest tax payers to pick up the tab."?
Can you tell me which nursing home I'm "trying" to do that in?
Because I haven't set foot in a nursing home since 2017 when my mom, (whose nursing home bills I was paying to the tune of $8,000 a month for out of her money), passed away.
I don't know how you made the jump from - me suggesting a method of someone legally divesting their assets by putting them in their e kids' names without the kids knowledge - and trying to do what you're accusing me of.
If you have a beef with people protecting their assets from nursing homes, you should contact your state legislators and the US Congress, and ask them to change the laws that make doing so legal. Then, maybe contact your state's bar association and ask them to stop allowing lawyers to practice the area of law in which they specialize in setting up trusts that legally exempt people's assets from being counted by Medicaid. I think it's called "Asset Protection".
And it's all perfectly legal.
If I had kids or heirs, I'd set up a trust for them and let Medicaid pay for my nursing home care without the slightest twinge of guilt. Heck... I still might even pick out a charity to leave my money to and have a trust set up just to avoid spending it on a nursing home!!!!
I'll let you know when I do it, just to make you mad!!!
{shrug} nothing you said changes the facts that folks who do what you are putting forth are just trying to avoid paying for their own care, and pass the tab on to us honest taxpayers. Illegal? No, if properly done. Does that make it right? Most would say no.
And for the record, my mother is 97 and is in a senior facility. You are not paying a penny for her care. The entire cost is being paid out of her own assets. And that's the way it should be.
And for the record, my mother is 97 and is in a senior facility. You are not paying a penny for her care. The entire cost is being paid out of her own assets. And that's the way it should be.
Good for her. My mom did the same thing.
But I'm not resentful of people who've worked and sacrificed their entire lives, who would rather see the money they accumulated go for a better cause than into the pockets of the owners of some greedy, corner cutting, for-profit nursing home, who understaff their facilities to increase their own profits.
I find it odd that some people take moral umbrage at elderly people who wisely plan ahead to protect what they've worked for, while not expressing the slightest disapproval of greedy profiteers who soak them for all they're worth.
When my mom was in a nursing home in 2017, I had sole POA and I was paying the bills out of her bank accounts. When she first went on "private pay", the monthly bill was about $7,400. That was the first full month. After that, the price increased every month she was there until the fifth month, the last full month she was alive, I wrote them a check for $8,400. That was a $200 a month increase every month for the exact same so-so care she was getting all along. Had she stayed alive, they'd have continued to bleed her for every nickel they could squeeze.
Even the lady who worked in the financial office who I gave the checks to every month encouraged me to go see a lawyer and have a trust set up.
Odd how those who take issue with asset protection by individuals, don't seem to have any problems with price gouging by nursing homes.
I might just decide to set up an asset protection trust myself. Leave all my money to an animal rescue organization.
And if I do, I'll try to stay alive in the nursing home as long as possible and soak up every tax-payer nickel I can.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
So far I have had no problems, but only walking in, and then out, to visit people.
I sure hope not to live long enough to end up in one myself, at this point I am thinking about options to make sure that doesn't happen. I have seen some bad ones and some good ones, but not one I want to end up in.
We went to great lengths to keep the parents out of one... both ended up dying at home.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
All of my family members who went to assisted living facilities paid in full for their own care out of their own pockets. Had they been unable to do so, their children would have borne the costs without complaint.
None went to nursing homes other than for short post-hospital stints of PT and OT.
To me, divesting assets to prevent paying for one's own care is little short of intentional theft of taxpayer money. If those people wind up in the crappiest nursing homes with overwhelmed staff and marginal care, I'd say they'd be getting their just desserts.
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
"you don't have a family to divest for so they can invest in their lives. It is not right, IMO, to sacrifice their inheritance, especially at our levels here."
What's not right ? The fact that I don't have immediate family ?
I stand by my opinion, that you should exhaust all your own money, before you ask for taxpayer help in settling ANY debt , which is exactly what any nursing home fee is.
Sorry, Jim, it's your life, your money, and your family. But what you have said above raises several thoughts. Being that worried about what the children will spend their inheritance on could have various causes:
The children are still very young, and the money could be left in trust until they reach a particular age (can be done in your will), or
You feel obligated to give your money to your children, but as long as you are alive don't want to see how they are spending it, or
Your definition of "junk" differs from your childrens'.
That last one is probably the most interesting. If they are likely to spend it on what you consider "junk," wouldn't they still be doing that after you are gone and, surprise! They suddenly get a windfall after you are in your grave.
Of course, when that happens you could be 100, and your 70-year-old offspring suddenly come into a lot of money they didn't know about, which could have helped them immensely when they needed it.
I also have to wonder, what happens if you've given lots of cash to your children, or deposited it in their name in a secret bank account, and then you discover that you need it after all, for your own medical or nursing care expenses? Wouldn't those assets be trapped in the secret bank account, waiting for you to die? Would there be any way for you to get it back?
Of course, none of this addresses the main topic being discussed here, which is the morality of finding a loophole to avoid paying for your own health care. And that's a big issue in itself. I really do think the horrendous costs of these nursing facilities should not have to be borne by people unfortunate enough to need those facilities. In most civilized countries, they have free health care. I don't know how nursing homes, assisted living, etc. are covered in those countries, but I suspect the costs are at least partially covered by the government. We are left to flounder on our own, spending all the money we have saved over the years. We do have an ACA to help with medical expenses, but not for nursing homes. But then, if the costs are covered by the government, probably the taxes would go up so high that nobody would have much left over for savings anyway. One way or another, the piper has to be paid.
It's a complicated issue, and with an aging population will get more complicated.
And not a peep about private/corporately owned, for-profit nursing homes (which BTW is what most of them are nowadays) ripping people off by charging the most exorbitant fees allowable, while cutting every corner they can and understaffing their facilities, just to maximize their profits.
And let's be clear here.... the taxpayer funded Medicaid dollars that are paying the tab for those "deserving" folks are, like privately owned assets, also going into the pockets of the CEO's, Boards of Directors and stockholders who own the facilities.
Any thoughts on the morality of that?
Here's another little thing to ponder... the amount of Medicaid that nursing homes collect per patient, is much lower than the amount they charge private payers. A LOT lower. So in that respect, private payers like my mom, are picking up the tab for Medicaid freebie recipients.
If protecting one's assets is immoral, why is it legal to do so when done by the rules?
Isn't our system of laws based on moral principles?
Or are only us "little people" the ones upon whom it is incumbent to follow moral principles?
Sounds like every man (or woman of course) for himself IYAM.
StarSong
Awkward is my Superpower
- Location
- Los Angeles Suburbs
To me, that's like saying it's fine to shoplift at Walmart because the Waltons and other large shareholders are wealthy so they're obviously overcharging people. In addition, shoplifting raises the prices for everyone. Likewise, intentionally divesting assets to avoid paying for one's own care raises taxes for everyone. (Next time you're complaining about high taxes don't forget your own role.)
"Everyone for himself" is not a human quality I admire.
Morality is doing the right thing despite opportunities and justifications to behave otherwise.
I'm stepping away from this conversation because it's not merely a difference of opinion, it's a difference of morality. I cannot even "agree to disagree" on this one.
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
You bring up all good points, and I agree with you on them. But that still does not mean that I should pay for your stay in a facility.
Again, it is your need , you pay for it.
The unscrupulous practices of the institutions is a whole other subject . And pointing out their immorality/greed does not mean ..... pass the hat.
Shoplifting is illegal and a crime.
Asset protection is perfectly legal if the rules are followed.
Your opinion and that is fine.
Personally, I will almost certainly end up paying for my own nursing home care (if I end up in one) as I have no heirs to leave anything to.
But if I did, I would do whatever I could to pass my money on to them rather than spend it on a nursing home. And I would not feel one twinge of guilt about it.
Consider this for a minute... what if, instead of giving all of one's money to children or grandchildren or anyone else, one knew they were getting older and were approximately five or more years from likely having to enter a nursing home, and that person took an expensive vacation to Europe. Or bought some expensive item(s) like a new car or spent their money on other things just to get rid of it.
Is that something you feel is immoral and they should not do, just to keep a few pennies of your taxes from going towards their Medicaid?
Are you saying that once someone passes a certain age, they should scrimp and save and sacrifice, and do without nice things, just so they can pay their own nursing home tab and not burden the rest of us?
And how about you? Would you pass up a possible opportunity to travel somewhere you've always wanted to go just so I won't have to contribute to your nursing home bill? Would you forego buying a new car if you needed one because you don't want to burden the rest of us?
Because when you think about it.... in both cases, it's a matter of a person doing what they want to with their own money.
I do not see any moral issue there.
Condolences on the loss of your magnificent mother!
Thanks Pepper it was 6 years ago now, at 96 she knew when to call it quits.
She was an ex army nurse and bullshitted here way out of hospital several times.
Her time ran out...
Aunt Bea
SF VIP
- Location
- Near Mount Pilot
I believe that everyone should pay their own way before relying on the kindness of strangers
I also believe that rather than bicker about it we should work to change the laws that allow people to shelter assets from Medicaid.
I also believe that rather than bicker about it we should work to change the laws that allow people to shelter assets from Medicaid.
āDonāt hate the player; change the game.ā - Steve Harvey
KSav
Senior Member
- Location
- North Dakota
I sure hope so. From what I've seen, I never want to be in one. The only decent ones I have observed are prohibitively expensive, and I'd never be able to afford something like that.
I've been debating whether to get long-term care insurance just in case.
officerripley
Well-known Member
- Location
- Porlock, Calif
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
I agree here !
rgp
Well-known Member
- Location
- Milford,OH
Your opinion and that is fine.
Personally, I will almost certainly end up paying for my own nursing home care (if I end up in one) as I have no heirs to leave anything to.
But if I did, I would do whatever I could to pass my money on to them rather than spend it on a nursing home. And I would not feel one twinge of guilt about it.
Consider this for a minute... what if, instead of giving all of one's money to children or grandchildren or anyone else, one knew they were getting older and were approximately five or more years from likely having to enter a nursing home, and that person took an expensive vacation to Europe. Or bought some expensive item(s) like a new car or spent their money on other things just to get rid of it.
Is that something you feel is immoral and they should not do, just to keep a few pennies of your taxes from going towards their Medicaid?
Are you saying that once someone passes a certain age, they should scrimp and save and sacrifice, and do without nice things, just so they can pay their own nursing home tab and not burden the rest of us?
And how about you? Would you pass up a possible opportunity to travel somewhere you've always wanted to go just so I won't have to contribute to your nursing home bill? Would you forego buying a new car if you needed one because you don't want to burden the rest of us?
Because when you think about it.... in both cases, it's a matter of a person doing what they want to with their own money.
I do not see any moral issue there.
"Is that something you feel is immoral and they should not do, just to keep a few pennies of your taxes from going towards their Medicaid?"
Yes !
'
Are you saying that once someone passes a certain age, they should scrimp and save and sacrifice, and do without nice things, just so they can pay their own nursing home tab and not burden the rest of us?"
Yes again !
"
"Would you forego buying a new car if you needed one because you don't want to burden the rest of us?"
One more time ........ Yes !