Changing Grammar Over The Years!

Warrigal said:
I don't ever remember hearing 'drug' as a verb in Australia. We are more likely to haul ourselves out of the pool. One of those regional differences that I referred to earlier. I am open to correction should any Aussie wish to take me to task.
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I think I spend too much time in Amazon's self-published authors section! I run across "drug" quite frequently! LOL
 

I agree with your premise and most of what you've written here, Old Salt.

A few thoughts occur to me. First, although I consider my knowledge of grammar and word usage to be fairly good, I also suspect that I make many mistakes. In all likelihood, this happens more frequently when speaking than when writing.

Secondly, what exactly do people really mean when they ask "How are you?"?

Finally, I believe "farther" is correct when referring to physical space. I use "further" to indicate the the extension or expansion of something. "Home Depot is father from my house than Lowe's, but I find no further advantage to shopping at either one.
 
About the farther-further thing, I was taught that "farther" refers to distance only; "further" is everything else.

Examples:

"He lives farther from town than I do."
"She is further along in her studies than most of her class."

But I doubt that anyone cares any more, if they ever did.
 

The purpose of language is to effectively communicate an idea to another. Me thinks grammar and usage are fluid things, which change over time. Yes, some rules are needed for preciseness, but not all communication needs preciseness. Usage is the arbitrator of correctness. There is no grammar police. But, even more than usage, regionalism greatly affects language. Where you live is as important as how you say it. What always struck me was that children are deluged with a "national" language and pronunciation on all types of media, adults, etc., Yet it is their fellow kids, who determine their speech patterns.
 
Tommy said:
I agree with your premise and most of what you've written here, Old Salt.

A few thoughts occur to me. First, although I consider my knowledge of grammar and word usage to be fairly good, I also suspect that I make many mistakes. In all likelihood, this happens more frequently when speaking than when writing.

Secondly, what exactly do people really mean when they ask "How are you?"?

Finally, I believe "farther" is correct when referring to physical space. I use "further" to indicate the the extension or expansion of something. "Home Depot is father from my house than Lowe's, but I find no further advantage to shopping at either one.
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I think that for most 'How are you?" is a formality. It sound friendlier than just "Hi" or "Hello" but they don't really expect you to respond with all the things that are right or wrong with you.

And you are absolutely right about the definition of "further" and "farther." Now try to find a "farther" in your daily reading, even if the authors talk about physical distances. I haven't seen one in months and I want my farthers back. :)
 
fuzzybuddy said:
The purpose of language is to effectively communicate an idea to another. Me thinks grammar and usage are fluid things, which change over time. Yes, some rules are needed for preciseness, but not all communication needs preciseness. Usage is the arbitrator of correctness. There is no grammar police. But, even more than usage, regionalism greatly affects language. Where you live is as important as how you say it. What always struck me was that children are deluged with a "national" language and pronunciation on all types of media, adults, etc., Yet it is their fellow kids, who determine their speech patterns.
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Yes, you are right, of course, fuzzybuddy. I am speaking from the viewpoint of a voracious reader. To me, "they had no room for Roger and I" equals the sound of a fingernail on a chalk board. I can honestly say that's the only thing I can't forgive (well, not really) the authors: "My God, can't you see how awkward that sounds?" In real life I would be one of the worst offenders since my local German dialect is so strong that North Germans can't understand me. We butcher official grammar in my neighbourhood. Things have changed quite a bit in the meantime, through Television. So you make a good point re. regionalism!
 
Sunny said:
About the farther-further thing, I was taught that "farther" refers to distance only; "further" is everything else.

Examples:

"He lives farther from town than I do."
"She is further along in her studies than most of her class."

But I doubt that anyone cares any more, if they ever did.
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I agree that nobody seems to care since I haven't seen "farther" for so long. I don't know what makes me care, sunny! I guess old age makes one crotchety and unwilling to adapt to the new. That's not generally true in my case, but when it comes to grammar, I am a bit picky, Could be because I had to learn English so laboriously, so it bothers me if authors don't stick to the rules. :)
 
I think "farther" vs. "further" is the least of it. How about men referring to their husbands, and women to their wives? And let's not even get into what the transgender crowd have done to pronouns! "Her daughter said that they are coming over for dinner tonight," when it's only the daughter who is coming, not a plural group of people.

To answer Peppermint, I don't think "Hey you!" has ever been considered exactly polite. What do people use instead? Maybe just "Hello?" Or "Excuse me?" What do they use instead of buddy and pal? Beats me!
 
peppermint said:
Anyone still say, Buddy!!!! Or Hey you!!! Or Pal!!!! I can go on and on!!!!
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:) They still say "Buddy" in my neck of the woods. Those things have nothing to do with grammar. But would make for a fascinating subject. I can honestly say I don't understand half of the expressions that have made their way into the English language. I am lost when people talk about "Memes," as one example. I keep turning to the dictionary every five minutes these days.
 
Sunny said:
I think "farther" vs. "further" is the least of it. How about men referring to their husbands, and women to their wives? And let's not even get into what the transgender crowd have done to pronouns! "Her daughter said that they are coming over for dinner tonight," when it's only the daughter who is coming, not a plural group of people.

To answer Peppermint, I don't think "Hey you!" has ever been considered exactly polite. What do people use instead? Maybe just "Hello?" Or "Excuse me?" What do they use instead of buddy and pal? Beats me!
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You must be younger then me.....My Dad called people buddy and pal if he didn't know their name....In NJ, "Hey You" is not very polite.....But it doesn't bother me.....
 
Old Salt said:
I agree that nobody seems to care since I haven't seen "farther" for so long. I don't know what makes me care, sunny! I guess old age makes one crotchety and unwilling to adapt to the new. That's not generally true in my case, but when it comes to grammar, I am a bit picky, Could be because I had to learn English so laboriously, so it bothers me if authors don't stick to the rules. :)
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Could I be so bold to suggest that you are very conscious of English grammar precisely because your first language is German. I studied German at school along with French and Latin. It seems to me that German and Latin are both more structured than either English or French.

English is a mongrel language that continually morphs over time and space, absorbing new words and expressions. It has done this with each invasion of the English isles and throughout the days of Empire. Motion pictures and television, not to mention the now ubiquitous internet, continue to change the ways we speak and write.

IMO this is all good. It signifies a living language of the people, unlike Latin which has stopped developing and is considered archaic and dead. English is to a tree as Latin is to timber. Verstehen Sie ?
 
Y'all be trippin' witcho big concerns about what's proppuh, and what ain't. Dig: If some cat be tryin' to 'splain sumin to yo uncomprehending azz, den jus be cool wit it, and go at it from uh nothuh angle, see? What be down wit dat dude might not be in yo experiential realm, as it were, but we all human, dat right? Jus be askin' fo a little clarification. It ain't dat hard. You gwan be thinkin' some mofo might be ignorant, and stuff, jus cuz he be murderin' duh King's English? Wrong move! I done met lotsuh peeps, in my old hood, who be sharp as a tack, see, but dey jus be using dare own talk to get things over. Am I gettin' through, here?

In reality, I speak fluent "hood speak," because of my going through the White Flight of my old Chicago South Shore neighborhood: My neighborhood went from 90% white to 87% black, in about four years. When I'm with my old buddies, and we're reminiscing, I fall, easily, back into the rhythm and jargon of my younger days. My experience from those days taught me to never judge anyone by their use of whatever common language you might be conversing in. As long as understanding is achieved, everything should be cool.
 
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Old Salt said:
I see that one quite often with self published authors. I write reviews now and then for Amazon.ca and that one takes the number 2 spot of personal beefs. I always end up pleading: "Please get an editor or proof reader or a friend who majored in English!" The last one, because it is so harsh, only when the book was so horrible that I had to stop reading.

Which reminds me: how many authors don't know the difference between who and whom? Or whoever and whomever, ie. " with who she had only spoken last night." I very seldom blame the author because when the Muse strikes you don't worry about details, you keep typing. I do blame them for not doing enough editing. Spell Check, too, as another example, will be the death of proper English yet. Here's another few that tend to be misused: there and their, affect and effect, naval and navel, sight and site. Aargh is right!
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AND the apostrophe!!! Double AARGH! The use of the apostrophe (incorrectly) in the indication of a plural makes my teeth itch.
 
BTW, we never did come up with a word for non-gender possessive pronouns. I detest the "he/she", "his/hers" nonsense. So I did. Instead of "The detective wore his/her badge". The detective wore shier badge". Well, you come up with something.
 
Warrigal said:
Could I be so bold to suggest that you are very conscious of English grammar precisely because your first language is German. I studied German at school along with French and Latin. It seems to me that German and Latin are both more structured than either English or French.

English is a mongrel language that continually morphs over time and space, absorbing new words and expressions. It has done this with each invasion of the English isles and throughout the days of Empire. Motion pictures and television, not to mention the now ubiquitous internet, continue to change the ways we speak and write.

IMO this is all good. It signifies a living language of the people, unlike Latin which has stopped developing and is considered archaic and dead. English is to a tree as Latin is to timber. Verstehen Sie ?
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Ja, Ich verstehe! Und Sie haben recht! The funny thing is, German is my guide when it comes to "who" or "whom, or "whoever" and "whomever" in English." I can't explain it but it is true. :)
 
fuzzybuddy said:
BTW, we never did come up with a word for non-gender possessive pronouns. I detest the "he/she", "his/hers" nonsense. So I did. Instead of "The detective wore his/her badge". The detective wore shier badge". Well, you come up with something.
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In what situation would you not know the gender of the detective? If you don't then it would make more sense to say "The detective wore a badge". Or you could say. "The female detective wore her badge".
 
treeguy64 said:
Y'all be trippin' witcho big concerns about what's proppuh, and what ain't. Dig: If some cat be tryin' to 'splain sumin to yo uncomprehending azz, den jus be cool wit it, and go at it from uh nothuh angle, see? What be down wit dat dude might not be in yo experiential realm, as it were, but we all human, dat right? Jus be askin' fo a little clarification. It ain't dat hard. You gwan be thinkin' some mofo might be ignorant, and stuff, jus cuz he be murderin' duh King's English? Wrong move! I done met lotsuh peeps, in my old hood, who be sharp as a tack, see, but dey jus be using dare own talk to get things over. Am I gettin' through, here?

In reality, I speak fluent "hood speak," because of my going through the White Flight of my old Chicago South Shore neighborhood: My neighborhood went from 90% white to 87% black, in about four years. When I'm with my old buddies, and we're reminiscing, I fall, easily, back into the rhythm and jargon of my younger days. My experience from those days taught me to never judge anyone by their use of whatever common language you might be conversing in. As long as understanding is achieved, everything should be cool.
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You are right and you are wrong, treeguy. Generally speaking I don't judge people for their dialects (I referred to mine which is incomprehensible to a German who comes from the North of the country). So, I agree with you when it comes to your post in general. However, you may have noticed that most of my posts have to do with poorly edited books. I confess that I run across "Roger and I" in daily life as well but when it comes to novels the grammar should be flawless, don't you think? Except if it shows up in a conversation where people are expected to use their local, comfortable vernacular even if the grammar is off.
 
Old Salt said:
I confess that I run across "Roger and I" in daily life as well but when it comes to novels the grammar should be flawless, don't you think? Except if it shows up in a conversation where people are expected to use their local, comfortable vernacular even if the grammar is off.
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It does depend on knowing the parts of speech as how it is used in a sentence. Truthfully I don't notice when it's used "wrongly" in spoken language (known as being pedantic). I know I have used "I" and me" wrongly after the word "than". It's just feels more natural to say "than me". There is grammar that is technically correct but sounds strange. To me the sentence "It is I" just seems like putting on airs. 😁

Object of the preposition: They rented a room to Roger and me (take out the "Roger" and it will be clearer to you.)

Nominative Case: Roger and I rented a room. (take out "Roger" and It will be clearer to you.)
 
Olivia said:
It does depend on knowing the parts of speech as how it is used in a sentence. Truthfully I don't notice when it's used "wrongly" in spoken language (known as being pedantic). I know I have used "I" and me" wrongly after the word "than". It's just feels more natural to say "than me". There is grammar that is technically correct but sounds strange. To me the sentence "It is I" just seems like putting on airs. 😁

Object of the preposition: They rented a room to Roger and me. (take out the "Roger" and it will be clearer to you.

Nominative Case: Roger and I rented a room. (take out "Roger" and It will be clearer to you.
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There are many instances where using "me" instead of I have become right over the years. I use your two examples of Roger and I and Roger and me all the time in my reviews, hoping that the author will get to see it. It bugs me because it sounds so wrong. :) But many authors seem to think it's right and elegant.

By a coincident I just read this five minutes ago: "I think this pregnancy was God's way of stopping you and I from making a terrible mistake!" Ah, well, give it another year and maybe it won't bother me any more!
 
Old Salt said:
By a coincident I just read this five minutes ago: "I think this pregnancy was God's way of stopping you and I from making a terrible mistake!" Ah, well, give it another year and maybe it won't bother me any more!
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I don't know why it shouldn't continue to bother you.

By the way, I now want to know the story behind that sentence. 🙃 You can't just leave it hanging there (not to be confused with dangling participles).
 

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