Could you willfully believe something if there was a significant reward in it?

Ok back to the future - " could you be wilful [dishonest a liar ] to get a substantial payout - ah know I realize - too vague a question and just confuses us all - define wilful and its parameters and substantial and parameters - you have not been specific enough methinks?/
 

I already have as a child; I believed in heaven and hell and purgatory and many other things. My mind was not developed enough to question it. The reward was going to heaven by believing in Christ and the Bible.
 
Ruthanne said:
I already have as a child; I believed in heaven and hell and purgatory and many other things. My mind was not developed enough to question it. The reward was going to heaven by believing in Christ and the Bible.
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you may still make it too??
 

Lara said:
The question posed in this Thread's title is "Could you willfully believe something if there was a significant reward in it"...what else can that mean but things like religious beliefs like I brought up, or scientific theories like you brought up, or the placebo effect as bobcat brought up?

And when you turn to logic and common sense and research does that make it fact or does that just aid in your belief that it's fact? And are you sure that someone reading the Bible is not using logic, common sense, and research as well? Those reading the Bible are actually commanded to research ("study thyself to be approved unto God" 2 Timothy 2:15).
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Well, we are all entitled to our opinion.
 

1. Could you willfully believe something, you knew to be false, if there was a significant reward in it?​

2. Could you willfully believe something, not knowing if it was true or false, if there was a significant reward in it?​

3. Could you willfully believe something, knowing it was true or factual, if there was a significant reward in it?​


What is the question here, 1,2, or 3? My reply will differ depending on what is being asked. The question as posed calls for speculation on what the questioner is asking.

1. Never!
2. Not until I could determine what were the odds that it was true and what was the consequence if it was false.
3. Of course! Who wouldn't!
 
Religious beliefs are an example. Many people believe in Jesus and salvation based on emotional ties subjected to feelings rather than tangible evidence. Christianity for example, the concept of reward as opposed to hell, fire and damnation the obvious choice is salvation, reconciliation for the sin you acquired as the result of Adam, so the story goes. The reward and punishment system is a favorite among religions for induction purposes and maintaining order. Thankfully attending church and informational outside of church insures the Keeper of the Realm obedience within the fold and a compliant belief system.

Organizations are as strong as the people who believe and support them. The bigger my stick the more likely i will survive. Same goes for religion and the business model used to convince people, join the club or suffer the consequences, heaven or hell? If I were given the choice today regarding punishment or salvation I would need additional proof that punishment and salvation are my only options and proof that those two options exist without taking another person's word as the gospel truth.
 
JustDave said:
The "neurobiological effect" depends on you believing you were given a real medication. I doubt it works that way if the doctor told you that you are being given a placebo. It doesn't quite reach the requirement of willfully believing. You have been deceived, but are not willful.
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You may want to read the results of the study. The neurobiological effect was received even when you knew it was a placebo. It's strange, but it works.
Placebos may have benefits, even when people know they are taking them
 
bobcat said:
You may want to read the results of the study. The neurobiological effect was received even when you knew it was a placebo. It's strange, but it works.
Placebos may have benefits, even when people know they are taking them
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The effect of placebos has long been documented, but only in cases of illness caused by stress or a mental condition. Placebo medicating has long been used for hypochondriasis.

The success of many natural cures is nothing more than the placebo effect. I know a person that takes grape seed extract daily and claims it has protected her from any and every disease or disorder. When she stopped taking it for a month, she became very ill so her doctor (MD) told her to start taking it again. The mind is powerful, especially the subconscious. Hypnosis has proven this time and time again.
 
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There is nothing mind blowing about this "non deceptive" placebo study. Of course it can help same as prayer, meditation or hypnosis. The “happy effect” they achieve by showing the participants emotional videos, does not last forever and is not consistent.

The purpose behind a “deceptive” placebo is so that the researcher can evaluate a new drug or treatment.

In many cases researchers may conduct a “double blind study” meaning neither the participant nor the researcher knows which pill is the placebo This helps to prevent bias.
 
bobcat said:
You may want to read the results of the study. The neurobiological effect was received even when you knew it was a placebo. It's strange, but it works.
Placebos may have benefits, even when people know they are taking them
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That's interesting, and I can even understand that taking a known placebo could have beneficial results, because I can follow the psychological dynamics at play. But I have the feeling we are off track. Much of that revolves around the semantics of "willful."

I don't doubt that something can happen at an unconscious level to change a perception. This is nothing new. The subconscious accounts for possibly most of our behaviors, and beliefs as well. But my question is whether patients are willfully altering their perception of reality in this case. And a much bigger question is whether reality itself is altered. The ego has a tremendous ability to deceive itself and it may bring benefits with it. I've always understood that.

But let's get back to whether you can willfully change your belief. To me that has to occur at a conscious level, or it's not willful. Do you have that power? I don't seem to have it. I spent years trying to find that power. I am naturally skeptical of anyone who says they can. Beliefs can change for lots of reasons, but I don't believe they can be willfully changed. Can you do it? Better yet, just for my own sake, can you prove to me you did by telling me how you did it so that I can try to duplicate it. Kind of mini peer review thing.
 
I do not believe in Big Foot. However, if I was offered a job to search for big foot in the wilderness and be paid well for it. I would become a believer because I do believe that my beliefs could be wrong. Heck I would even give Ted talks on the signs that big foot exist.
 
Humans may conform to certain aspects of their environment, but to say they are “programmable” is a fallacy.

Humans are not mere machines…we possess consciousness, self-awareness, and the ability to make independent choices. We possess free will and are able to make choices that are not pre-determined.
 
JustDave said:
That's interesting, and I can even understand that taking a known placebo could have beneficial results, because I can follow the psychological dynamics at play. But I have the feeling we are off track. Much of that revolves around the semantics of "willful."

I don't doubt that something can happen at an unconscious level to change a perception. This is nothing new. The subconscious accounts for possibly most of our behaviors, and beliefs as well. But my question is whether patients are willfully altering their perception of reality in this case. And a much bigger question is whether reality itself is altered. The ego has a tremendous ability to deceive itself and it may bring benefits with it. I've always understood that.

But let's get back to whether you can willfully change your belief. To me that has to occur at a conscious level, or it's not willful. Do you have that power? I don't seem to have it. I spent years trying to find that power. I am naturally skeptical of anyone who says they can. Beliefs can change for lots of reasons, but I don't believe they can be willfully changed. Can you do it? Better yet, just for my own sake, can you prove to me you did by telling me how you did it so that I can try to duplicate it. Kind of mini peer review thing.
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Hi Dave: Well, to get to the bottom line and focal point of your question, the answer is yes. I have willfully chosen to believe something, and now I do. Here is the essence of it:
I have learned that much of what we believe is simply choices we make that are based on persuasion. We seek out information that agrees with our belief, and we choose to believe it, which accounts for the variety of beliefs that you see everywhere (Including SF), in politics, religion, the judicial system, social issues such as abortion, raising children, and on and on. The thing is, who is correct? If you believe we should have capital punishment because it deters crime, and another believes that is just B.S., each one of you will find evidence somewhere to support what they believe, but which one is actually right.

Now for my belief choice. I know that some powerful force gave birth to the universe, and whatever that force was eventually created us. So we are part of that energy that is in matter. The question no one can answer is: Does that energy have any consciousness to it? If you approach it from Bayesian reasoning, since there is no valid, provable evidence either way, there is equal likelihood that either could be true. There is only subjective experience from meditators, religious accounts, and metaphysical reports.

I have also learned that there is benefit to believing that there is some connection with this unknown cosmic energy (serenity, lack of worry, and even a feeling of tremendous exhilaration). So, given a 50% chance of being correct, I chose to believe in it. Since that time, I have looked at nature in a whole new light, and experienced many joyful moments communing with what I believe to be there.

Many may think that makes no sense without any tangible evidence, but they are choosing to believe that it's not there, also without any tangible evidence. They may be just as incorrect as I may be, and it may well be that we never find out, but meanwhile, I am enjoying something that is rewarding to me, so I have chosen it.
 
I'll give that some thought, but I have to get away from my computer for awhile. This is only my belief. I'll act on this and test to see if my belief was just in my head. Well, of course, it's in my head. Where else would it be?
 
davey said:
Ok back to the future - " could you be wilful [dishonest a liar ] to get a substantial payout - ah know I realize - too vague a question and just confuses us all - define wilful and its parameters and substantial and parameters - you have not been specific enough methinks?/
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It was more of a question regarding something you would like to believe, then make the choice to do so, and then find evidence to convince yourself.
 
bobcat said:
Many may think that makes no sense without any tangible evidence, but they are choosing to believe that it's not there, also without any tangible evidence. They may be just as incorrect as I may be, and it may well be that we never find out, but meanwhile, I am enjoying something that is rewarding to me, so I have chosen it.
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The benefit derived from believing there is God is not always to lead a happier and better life. For many it comes down to the same logic as you describe above. If there is a God there is a possibility of living eternity in hell. If there is no God then that possibility is slim to none. Many people choose to believe in God because it is "fire insurance". Whether or not God exists is not the main motivating factor. It IS to provide the benefits of eternal life that is pleasant and assured to be safe.
 
bobcat said:
It was more of a question regarding something you would like to believe, then make the choice to do so, and then find evidence to convince yourself.
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bobcat said:
Hi Dave: Well, to get to the bottom line and focal point of your question, the answer is yes. I have willfully chosen to believe something, and now I do. Here is the essence of it:
I have learned that much of what we believe is simply choices we make that are based on persuasion. We seek out information that agrees with our belief, and we choose to believe it, which accounts for the variety of beliefs that you see everywhere (Including SF), in politics, religion, the judicial system, social issues such as abortion, raising children, and on and on. The thing is, who is correct? If you believe we should have capital punishment because it deters crime, and another believes that is just B.S., each one of you will find evidence somewhere to support what they believe, but which one is actually right.

Now for my belief choice. I know that some powerful force gave birth to the universe, and whatever that force was eventually created us. So we are part of that energy that is in matter. The question no one can answer is: Does that energy have any consciousness to it? If you approach it from Bayesian reasoning, since there is no valid, provable evidence either way, there is equal likelihood that either could be true. There is only subjective experience from meditators, religious accounts, and metaphysical reports.

I have also learned that there is benefit to believing that there is some connection with this unknown cosmic energy (serenity, lack of worry, and even a feeling of tremendous exhilaration). So, given a 50% chance of being correct, I chose to believe in it. Since that time, I have looked at nature in a whole new light, and experienced many joyful moments communing with what I believe to be there.

Many may think that makes no sense without any tangible evidence, but they are choosing to believe that it's not there, also without any tangible evidence. They may be just as incorrect as I may be, and it may well be that we never find out, but meanwhile, I am enjoying something that is rewarding to me, so I have chosen it.
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That sort of belief is based on logical thinking, bobcat. There is a degree of tangible evidence to come to this conclusion. So many of us have studied at one point or another probables in either math or science, or both. Philosophy and psychiatry along with religion asks us to accept certain theories as fact. I prefer search out my own findings from as many sources as possible.
 

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