Creativity of Belief: The question of belief is not what but why do we beleive as we do?

Irwin said:
People are probably fairly consistent in how much they value truth. I would guess that religious people are more likely to doubt the science behind vaccinations and the wearing of masks, and to doubt the results of the last election as well as participating in the insurrection and coup attempt, and to believe other conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. That's why, if given the choice, I'd never choose a religious doctor, nor would I ever take the advice of a religious person for anything other than something relating to religion, which I have very limited interest in other than regarding its effects on society and politics.
Click to expand...
Probably best to leave political comments out.
 

Irwin said:
People are probably fairly consistent in how much they value truth. I would guess that religious people are more likely to doubt the science behind vaccinations and the wearing of masks, and to doubt the results of the last election as well as participating in the insurrection and coup attempt, and to believe other conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. That's why, if given the choice, I'd never choose a religious doctor, nor would I ever take the advice of a religious person for anything other than something relating to religion, which I have very limited interest in other than regarding its effects on society and politics.
Click to expand...
As much as I hate psychobabble and all related approaches- it depends on which 'truth' you're referring to.
As for covid, for example, there have been incidents in the news where, after insisting "science" was wrong, ministers etc. caught it and died from it.
 
well how about a re-kickstart or just re-fresh your glass gently? - i don't think hard about starting such things - they just sorta pop into my head so no 'hard kicks' or below belt jibes?? hahaha

Religion perhaps crosses our minds from time to time and then for some of course never. I have ‘sampled’ some Buddhist practices both in Oz and Thailand. Served as an altar boy in UK and done some lay preaching in Oz. I am aware of most of the major religions but not fully conversant in them!



Recently a very close friend of mine died in Uk – of course this event is happening many fold across our planet. So nothing particularly unusual. But sometimes you wonder whether that is now the last contact or not?



Some religions preach peace only. Whereas others talk of violence. There are for example many illustrations in the bible. The flood comes to mind ; crucifixion of course ; towns and villages slaughtered in the name of Yahweh in the OT. And the Koran also speaks of violence to non-Islamic persons on some occasions.



The Buddha whilst claiming never to have introduced a religion often talked of non-violence always? - With Myanmar perhaps being an exception?

And who can forget the violence during partition in India?



But I think in many of the reminder of various religions practised on this planet [and I realised I have not done full ‘justice’ to the list] , some will always preach and practice non-violence in this world and others ‘justified violence’? - if ever there is such a thing?



And then of course there are the Agnostics and Atheists?? do they include David Attenborough ; who bewonder and bewitches us with all the beauties of this planet and yet does not subscribe to any major religious group? Does he?



I guess I am just as confused now as when I started this small tome? - Our planet – accidental or designed? The age old dichotomy continues!



Ps: I love the ‘angelic’ proses here they seems so non-judgemental and comforting! - almost pureness itself?

+
 

good point for sure - but we do seem to be surrounded by empty planets well at least in our own milky way - we haven't managed to get beyond it yet to explore apart from telescopes with no one in them! we have of course explored the moon - sorta empty - and Mars remotely also sorta empty ................sometimes it seems to get a bit scary?

some of course expotulate that we crawled out of the sea and became human? - I could never quite see that though. But hah forgot about these 'secret' alien ships and bodies that the white house won't share with anyone else cos they think we are scared??

maybe we are just experimental - can things grow on a planet with magnetic pulls ; and shortness of space for good living -like deserts are not that hospitable. And many of us seem to have devekoped believe systems to perhaps control our fears of universal emptiness. Just imagine if we really the only species - homo sapiens in the entire universe. @Gaer - can you help with this one?
 
Last edited:
Everyone has a belief system whether they choose to acknowledge it or not. The human mind is a “belief factory,” we are constantly observing our world, inferring things about it, and choosing what to do with this knowledge. A lot of recent psychology research over the years has demonstrated that our minds are incredibly prone to error and bias. When we perceive things, we make a representation of them in our mind, but the representation is never perfect and it often is reshaped to be congruent with our current beliefs. Normally this is done subconsciously and we don't even notice or realize it is taking place.
Beliefs form in our minds to minimize our surprise about the world, or simply put, to explain things we don't understand. The prevailing thinking holds that people develop delusions to predict how events in their lives will occur — just as Pavlov's dog learned to predict that the sound of a bell ringing meant dinnertime was imminent. Occasionally humans update their beliefs when what they predict doesn't match what they actually experience, but not as often as one might expect. It takes less energy in the brain to confabulate or spin-doctor the reason for the mismatch than it does to rebuild the belief system.
Tests and studies show that delusions often appear to override the evidence of the senses. These study results demonstrate and confirm findings from previous studies that delusional individuals have less stable perceptions of the world. This is huge. Everyone can have delusions about anything, but once the belief is established, it shapes the perception so that it complies with the expectation, and changes the reality of the individual.
Nevertheless, I think spiritual beliefs can serve a purpose, even if they may be totally unfounded or illogical. If it brings a person comfort, or makes their life easier in some way, then it is beneficial. I believe that something has always existed in some sort of energy before the big bang, because it is scientifically illogical and physically impossible (As far as we know) to get something from nothing. Whatever that something was or is no one can know, even though many claim to. Personally, I enjoy a spiritual connection or syncing to that energy when in nature, but it is solely based on experience, and I don't claim to be able to prove any of it, but it is deeply soul satisfying, so it remains part of my life.
 
good reply still mulling this one over and over and over - gotta talk to the cheshire cat first and find alice down her hole but will get back to ya bo dilalee!! gotta walk the dog too! Back again well the ground felt reasonably firm beneath my feet and despite feeding the dog well he has taken off again in search of wallabies - hopefully dead ones!

As far as we all are aware - we are alone - we have searched as far as we can go and still are searching and apart from those yankies and their secrets we have found nothing resembling ourselves within known universes - that of course is not to say there is nothing out there but to our percieved minds there is not. I guess then it would not be seem surprising that homo sapiens have perhaps developed a complete psychotic view of life. Made up Gods and devils and saviours? - something to reduce this absolute fear that we are all alone in the universe. At least there is a heaven with many mansions because it has been written down by some sages from the past??

Some say we developed from apes from savages - well that would explain a lot of things - Ukraine and Russia for one - and then bully China who stole back Tibet and now fgs wants little old Taiwan back - pure animal aggression and greed. In fact I am amazed at how we manage to live in peace at all! - neighbour can fall out with neigbour across the garden fence over something trivial and the level of gun and knife violence in our major cities is astonishing.

Our own christian God was supposedly prone to acts of violence as written in the holy scriptures - if you think that we worship a God of love and compassion then think again go back and read the OT stories - Hollywood could make good war films about them all. And in fact still is on a more illusionary scale!

Many humans seem to just believe what fits into their comfort zones or mindsets at the time - we have a plethora of religions on offer atm - pick on that suits you - you may need to go to war with another but heh that's all part of the entertainment?

We can all come up with a panacea for a better life - snake oil if you will - but which one is the real one out of many? Try this film:

the imaginarium of doctor Parnassus - psychoses or just good fun??
 
Last edited:
Bottom line is you believe in God or you do not. If you don't believe then you find your own way. You judge the fairness and unfairness of life. You determine why life goes on. You determine why we have not destroyed ourselves. World war one, world war two. You can sit there, in the comfort of your own home and determine why you are able to sit there and think about these things. You could be scratching for food to feed yourself and your family. But your not!

You decide who is in charge or how things turn out? If it's not you then where is it coming from? ...........................................................
Your president?
your country?
Fate?
The natural order of things?
Life just happens??

Seriously folks. Think about all this. Many have the answers until you find out they don't.
The answer is within each of us.

Just ask God.

Lord I need your help

then just listen

rbtvgo
 
yup that supposedly is what Donald Neil Walsch did once and from there he made a stack of money - I think he explains it in Conversations with God book 1??
 
bobcat48 said:
Everyone has a belief system whether they choose to acknowledge it or not. The human mind is a “belief factory,” we are constantly observing our world, inferring things about it, and choosing what to do with this knowledge. A lot of recent psychology research over the years has demonstrated that our minds are incredibly prone to error and bias. When we perceive things, we make a representation of them in our mind, but the representation is never perfect and it often is reshaped to be congruent with our current beliefs. Normally this is done subconsciously and we don't even notice or realize it is taking place.
Beliefs form in our minds to minimize our surprise about the world, or simply put, to explain things we don't understand. The prevailing thinking holds that people develop delusions to predict how events in their lives will occur — just as Pavlov's dog learned to predict that the sound of a bell ringing meant dinnertime was imminent. Occasionally humans update their beliefs when what they predict doesn't match what they actually experience, but not as often as one might expect. It takes less energy in the brain to confabulate or spin-doctor the reason for the mismatch than it does to rebuild the belief system.
Tests and studies show that delusions often appear to override the evidence of the senses. These study results demonstrate and confirm findings from previous studies that delusional individuals have less stable perceptions of the world. This is huge. Everyone can have delusions about anything, but once the belief is established, it shapes the perception so that it complies with the expectation, and changes the reality of the individual.
Nevertheless, I think spiritual beliefs can serve a purpose, even if they may be totally unfounded or illogical. If it brings a person comfort, or makes their life easier in some way, then it is beneficial. I believe that something has always existed in some sort of energy before the big bang, because it is scientifically illogical and physically impossible (As far as we know) to get something from nothing. Whatever that something was or is no one can know, even though many claim to. Personally, I enjoy a spiritual connection or syncing to that energy when in nature, but it is solely based on experience, and I don't claim to be able to prove any of it, but it is deeply soul satisfying, so it remains part of my life.
Click to expand...
There have been neurobiologists and studies that suggest the human brain is 'hardwired' for belief, much as it is for facial recognition recognition and fight or flight responses.
 
Ah yes but is that belief just an internal creation or external if you see what I mean - I think I believe in ME most of the time - that sorta keeps me goin - but why would I believe in anything external unless it/he/she proves themselves to come up 100% correct everytime?

yes of course there are many internal wirings that are seemingly 'hardwired' the muscular system/ cardiac system /renal system right/ neuro system etc but a belief in an everlasting external being who controls the entire universe - that may not be 'hardwired' just hard to believe?
 
davey said:
Ah yes but is that belief just an internal creation or external if you see what I mean - I think I believe in ME most of the time - that sorta keeps me goin - but why would I believe in anything external unless it/he/she proves themselves to come up 100% correct everytime?

yes of course there are many internal wirings that are seemingly 'hardwired' the muscular system/ cardiac system /renal system right/ neuro system etc but a belief in an everlasting external being who controls the entire universe - that may not be 'hardwired' just hard to believe?
Click to expand...
However hard to believe anything is depends in part on one's life experiences.
But the specific belief in a personified entity that created and rules the universe (as so many faiths devised by humans proclaim) fits quite well with observable human tendencies. In particular the avoidance of taking responsibility for one's own behaviors (this also necessitated creating a devil to 'lead them astray'), and needing to have an 'authority figure' (and scriptures) to back up whatever rules they wish to impose on others.
 
bobcat48 said:
Everyone has a belief system whether they choose to acknowledge it or not. The human mind is a “belief factory,” we are constantly observing our world, inferring things about it, and choosing what to do with this knowledge. A lot of recent psychology research over the years has demonstrated that our minds are incredibly prone to error and bias. When we perceive things, we make a representation of them in our mind, but the representation is never perfect and it often is reshaped to be congruent with our current beliefs. Normally this is done subconsciously and we don't even notice or realize it is taking place.
Beliefs form in our minds to minimize our surprise about the world, or simply put, to explain things we don't understand. The prevailing thinking holds that people develop delusions to predict how events in their lives will occur — just as Pavlov's dog learned to predict that the sound of a bell ringing meant dinnertime was imminent. Occasionally humans update their beliefs when what they predict doesn't match what they actually experience, but not as often as one might expect. It takes less energy in the brain to confabulate or spin-doctor the reason for the mismatch than it does to rebuild the belief system.
Tests and studies show that delusions often appear to override the evidence of the senses. These study results demonstrate and confirm findings from previous studies that delusional individuals have less stable perceptions of the world. This is huge. Everyone can have delusions about anything, but once the belief is established, it shapes the perception so that it complies with the expectation, and changes the reality of the individual.
Nevertheless, I think spiritual beliefs can serve a purpose, even if they may be totally unfounded or illogical. If it brings a person comfort, or makes their life easier in some way, then it is beneficial. I believe that something has always existed in some sort of energy before the big bang, because it is scientifically illogical and physically impossible (As far as we know) to get something from nothing. Whatever that something was or is no one can know, even though many claim to. Personally, I enjoy a spiritual connection or syncing to that energy when in nature, but it is solely based on experience, and I don't claim to be able to prove any of it, but it is deeply soul satisfying, so it remains part of my life.
Click to expand...
Hate to break this to you but our physical 'senses' are not nearly as reliable as most people presume. Nor are they as consistently receptive in all individuals. Some people have broader or narrower range of hearing, sight, olfactory, taste perception than what is considered average/normal.

And synestetes have perceptions that mix the data. At one time reports from such people were considered 'delusions', now science has verified this happens.

As my corneal dystrophy progressed i had daily demonstrations that what i read in Oliver Sacks' work and learned in Physio Psych was true: Our mind shapes what we see not just the actual data collected by the eye. What i thought i was seeing could change rapidly as i shifted my head or moved closer so got more datanto form more accurate perception.

Our brain is so intent on 'making sense' of incoming data that it often makes erroneous assumptions. This is also what causes pareidoila. Faces the most common manifestation of that because facial recognition is hardwired in most humans. Brain injuries can sometimes interfere with this to point that people don't recognize faces if loved ones tho may still recognise their voices.
 
feywon said:
However hard to believe anything is depends in part on one's life experiences.
But the specific belief in a personified entity that created and rules the universe (as so many faiths devised by humans proclaim) fits quite well with observable human tendencies. In particular the avoidance of taking responsibility for one's own behaviors (this also necessitated creating a devil to 'lead them astray'), and needing to have an 'authority figure' (and scriptures) to back up whatever rules they wish to impose on other
Click to expand...
Nah I was warming up to some of your ideas but that is right off the richter scale - now that sounds like a feywon fairytale!!
 
feywon said:
Hate to break this to you but our physical 'senses' are not nearly as reliable as most people presume. Nor are they as consistently receptive in all individuals. Some people have broader or narrower range of hearing, sight, olfactory, taste perception than what is considered average/normal.

And synestetes have perceptions that mix the data. At one time reports from such people were considered 'delusions', now science has verified this happens.

As my corneal dystrophy progressed i had daily demonstrations that what i read in Oliver Sacks' work and learned in Physio Psych was true: Our mind shapes what we see not just the actual data collected by the eye. What i thought i was seeing could change rapidly as i shifted my head or moved closer so got more datanto form more accurate perception.

Our brain is so intent on 'making sense' of incoming data that it often makes erroneous assumptions. This is also what causes pareidoila. Faces the most common manifestation of that because facial recognition is hardwired in most humans. Brain injuries can sometimes interfere with this to point that people don't recognize faces if loved ones tho may still recognise their voices.
Click to expand...
these are all extreme examples and not consistent with the majority of the population between say 18 yrs and 60 yrs - you are reaching out to the extremes to attempt to impress and win arguments - don't work to the descerning eye~!
 
feywon said:
Hate to break this to you but our physical 'senses' are not nearly as reliable as most people presume. Nor are they as consistently receptive in all individuals. Some people have broader or narrower range of hearing, sight, olfactory, taste perception than what is considered average/normal.

And synestetes have perceptions that mix the data. At one time reports from such people were considered 'delusions', now science has verified this happens.

As my corneal dystrophy progressed i had daily demonstrations that what i read in Oliver Sacks' work and learned in Physio Psych was true: Our mind shapes what we see not just the actual data collected by the eye. What i thought i was seeing could change rapidly as i shifted my head or moved closer so got more datanto form more accurate perception.

Our brain is so intent on 'making sense' of incoming data that it often makes erroneous assumptions. This is also what causes pareidoila. Faces the most common manifestation of that because facial recognition is hardwired in most humans. Brain injuries can sometimes interfere with this to point that people don't recognize faces if loved ones tho may still recognise their voices.
Click to expand...
We all know that everyone has limitations on their detection of sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, to varying degrees, but it is my contention that the weak link is in the interpretation. Our brain interprets all sensations, and as I mentioned, that's where the reliability falters.
 
feywon said:
Hate to break this to you but our physical 'senses' are not nearly as reliable as most people presume. Nor are they as consistently receptive in all individuals. Some people have broader or narrower range of hearing, sight, olfactory, taste perception than what is considered average/normal.

And synestetes have perceptions that mix the data. At one time reports from such people were considered 'delusions', now science has verified this happens.


Our brain is so intent on 'making sense' of incoming data that it often makes erroneous assumptions. This is also what causes pareidoila. Faces the most common manifestation of that because facial recognition is hardwired in most humans. Brain injuries can sometimes interfere with this to point that people don't recognize faces if loved ones tho may still recognise their voices.
Click to expand...

With respect…I do believe you are getting a bit mixed up here Feywon. Pareidolia is quite common, most of us have had this experience at some time … especially women according to some researchers .

Paridolia is not caused by brain injury. You are now talking about Prosopagnosia: face blindness after brain injury. Two different things.
 
feywon said:
Hate to break this to you but our physical 'senses' are not nearly as reliable as most people presume. Nor are they as consistently receptive in all individuals. Some people have broader or narrower range of hearing, sight, olfactory, taste perception than what is considered average/normal.
Click to expand...
There are more than the five senses we already know: sight, taste, touch, hearing and smell.

There are three more lesser known ones: vestibular (deals with balance), proprioceptive (movement) and interoceptive (helps with our internal sensations).

All of these senses are highly reliable…providing there is no serious injury. Then there are limitations, some small, some vast and rehabilitation is necessary.
 
Beliefs are generally formed in two ways: (a) by our experiences, environment, generally what we are exposed to... or... (2) by accepting what others tell us to be true.
Most of our core beliefs are formed when we are children. When we are born, we enter this world with a clean slate (tabular rasa) and without preconceived beliefs. Then the bombardment begins…stimuli coming from every direction…forming beliefs, embedding them like a youtube video in our brains.

However…we don’t have to be like this forever..we can change our thinking if we want to…but it is very hard work re-programming the brain. This is hard work and most of us are too lazy to do this. So we keep on keeping on with the same stale information we received over the decades.

Trouble is, when we hear the same false information repeated again and again, we often come to believe it is true (illusory truth effect).
We form beliefs, some we stick with because we don’t know any better others because we are too afraid to go against the status quo.
.
 
Jamala said:
With respect…I do believe you are getting a bit mixed up here Feywon. Pareidolia is quite common, most of us have had this experience at some time … especially women according to some researchers .

Paridolia is not caused by brain injury. You are now talking about Prosopagnosia: face blindness after brain injury. Two different things.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry if you mis-read my post and/or i was not clear enough. i meant that our Facial Recognition process causes pareidoila which i know is quite common because of our facial recognition processes, but thought i should mention that brain injury can interfere with normal facial recognition processes. Pareidoila is an effect of working facial recognition. Prosopagnosia, a word i was too tired at the time (11:44 pm) i posted to look up the correct spelling of as i normally would have is a malfunction of the normal processes.
 
Last edited:
bobcat48 said:
We all know that everyone has limitations on their detection of sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, to varying degrees, but it is my contention that the weak link is in the interpretation. Our brain interprets all sensations, and as I mentioned, that's where the reliability falters.
Click to expand...
i believe i talked about the fact that our brain interpretations are the crucial part. But here's the thing--it generally can only interpret on basis of data received by conscious mind. Much data never gets that far tho how much gets thru can vary widely between individuals. While the subconscious can store and at times send signals (about someone's trustworthiness, something's authenticity or our safety) in the form of 'intuition', hunches, 'gut feelings' which Malcolm Gladwell details in 'Blink', it usually takes most people a while to trust those signals because they are not supported by data that we consciously can list as reasons for our feelings.

Will address the statement i made bold in a moment as @Jamala said mentioned 'limitations' as well.


Jamala said:
There are more than the five senses we already know: sight, taste, touch, hearing and smell.

There are three more lesser known ones: vestibular (deals with balance), proprioceptive (movement) and interoceptive (helps with our internal sensations).

All of these senses are highly reliable…providing there is no serious injury. Then there are limitations, some small, some vast and rehabilitation is necessary.
Click to expand...
Depends on your definition of 'highly reliable'.

@bobcat48 acknowledges there are limitations. Am i reading you, Jamala, as saying that limitations only occur due to injury/disease/degeneration? i do not mean that as a challenge i am trying to be sure i understand what you meant, you only referred to injury. But my myopia began at age 8 or 9. My Fuch's Corneal Dystropy in my early 50's. Both my hearing and olfactory senses were broader than most people's most of my life.

i find it interesting that neither of you acknowledge the fact that some people actually do have heightened senses. Ongoing research is beginning to reveal much more neuro-diversity than first recognized. And not just in terms of limited perceptions but in terms of expanded. It is not always a good thing. This is part of problem for some on Autism Spectrum--sensitivity to various kinds of relatively common low-level pressure (clothing seams, tags or even just the texture of some materials) on the skin can range from nuisance level to the person experiencing pain.
 
Last edited:
Paco Dennis said:
Belief being confirmation bias? Survival of the fittest?
Click to expand...
If i come across the book i read about this as i'm rearranging things this summer i'll pm you the title. It's been a while since i read it, but as i recall the implications were that we are hardwired to 'believe' in something 'outside of ' or bigger than ourselves. Whether an entity or just a philosophy.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top