Dad's texting to daughter sparks argument, shot dead

I am afraid that us Brits don't understand your 'gun culture'. We prefer knives for some reason..
 

Not as many as you per thousand, I will look up the figures while you go to the store!
 
US has 4.7 homicides per 100,000
UK has 1.2 homicides per 100,00
however the corresponding figures involving firearms is 10.3 v 1.2, which is why we don't understand your 'gun culture!'
 
Before Phil brings his superior knowledge to bear, I will admit those figures came from Wikipedia, and may not be from exactly corresponding years, but you get the general idea..
 
Before Phil brings his superior knowledge to bear, I will admit those figures came from Wikipedia, and may not be from exactly corresponding years, but you get the general idea..

They seem to click with the FBI and other stats.

You have to be careful with statistics, though ... they can express facts in many different ways, some of which can lead to erroneous conclusions.

For example, the US homicide-by-gun rates ... they could theoretically be accounted for by:


  1. More guns in the hands of private citizens discourage people from committing murder with knives.
  2. The number of murders with knives declined, and the number of murders with guns remained constant.
  3. The overall number of murders decreased because of the decline in knife murder rates, so the percentage of murders committed with guns increased even though the number of gun murders remained constant.

And here's something to think about when comparing US gun deaths with UK knife deaths ...



  • In or about 2006, there were about 60 million (actually closer to 58M, but we'll use the rounded-up number) people in the UK as a whole, including Scotland.
  • In England and Wales alone — discounting Scotland — there were over 163 thousand knife crimes.
  • By the end of 2006, there were more than 300 million people in the US as a whole.
  • In the US as a whole, there were fewer than 400 thousand gun crimes.
  • In the UK, based on these numbers, there was one knife crime commited for every 374 people (rounded down).
  • In the US, based on these numbers, there was one gun crime committed for every 750 people — less than half a gun crime per 374 people (about 0.4987 gun crimes per 374 people, actually).
That means that, based on these statistics, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK as you are to be a victim of gun crime in the US.

It's never as straightforward as our governments would have us believe ...
 
I agree to a large extent, Phil; I know statistics can be made to fit certain scenarios, and I realise that our knife crime is horrendous; but knives tend to kill one person at a time; whereas you lot seem to like to get a few more at once!
just a different perspective from this side of the pond.... And we are really not a gun-carrying nation.
 
And yet ... speaking from a purely personal perspective, facing a knife is much more disconcerting than facing a gun. I think it's the idea of the amount of blood that can be let, the multiple wounds and the unique feel of a knife injury as opposed to a gunshot.

A lot of people I know and have spoken with that underwent their own trials-by-weapon agreed with me.

But as far as multiple homicides, yes, I agree that guns make it much easier.

What I've never understood about the gun situation in the UK is that you folks are no strangers to guns, which puts you in the same league as us. We both have our histories filled with the use of firearms. What got you to convince the public to give them up?

Could it be that the US race-memories are still too fresh in our minds for us to allow them to take our guns? I believe your last civil war ended in 1651; our last one ended in 1865.
 
You may be right.....also we do not hunt as much as you.....our large wild-life was shot to extinction ; anyway, we prefer to tear animals to pieces in a social group!
We banned hand-guns after the Dunblane massacre, and when police with machine guns appeared at our airports there was outrage!
we are also a lotmore squashed together than you, we just don't speak to our neighbours, part of our natural reserve.
we did not have civil rights problems like you at all; we weren't particularly tolerant I don't think, but our population is a lot smaller, so we didn't end up with a large ethnic underclass.
 
I don't have a Gun but if I had to protect myself in my Home and I killed the perp so be it. But here in Canada I would be arrested for killing him.
in Fact if I even hurt a Burglar etc. breaking into my home he could sue me, isn't that a lot of B.S.
 
We have that too Gar; if you can prove self-defence a lighter sentence will come your way, but shoot him in the back; no chance!
 
You may be right.....also we do not hunt as much as you.....our large wild-life was shot to extinction ; anyway, we prefer to tear animals to pieces in a social group!
We banned hand-guns after the Dunblane massacre, and when police with machine guns appeared at our airports there was outrage!
we are also a lotmore squashed together than you, we just don't speak to our neighbours, part of our natural reserve.

That all makes sense - thank you.

we did not have civil rights problems like you at all; we weren't particularly tolerant I don't think, but our population is a lot smaller, so we didn't end up with a large ethnic underclass.

Wellllll ... that isn't what my bouncer buddies around London tell me. With over 12% of London being comprised of Muslims I reckon there are a good percentage of fights caused by racial / religious tensions. What about all the riots that occurred in 2011 & 2012?
 
I meant back in the 60's and 70's. Now is different; I think we are becoming more divided; us middle class whites tend to be in our own bubbles, and try and ignore places like Tottenham...I can only see it getting worse.
but again, that is not usually guns; arson, bricks, paving stones, fists.....
 
I meant back in the 60's and 70's. Now is different; I think we are becoming more divided; us middle class whites tend to be in our own bubbles, and try and ignore places like Tottenham...I can only see it getting worse.
but again, that is not usually guns; arson, bricks, paving stones, fists.....

Ah, okay, that makes sense. We had our own "awakening" over here in the 60's and 70's, so I guess you are just following our lead. ;)

I suppose they don't use guns because they're so difficult to purchase, and that the black-market ones are priced beyond the rioters' wallets.

The bombs, well ... that's a different topic entirely. :cool:
 
I imagine that to buy a gun you have to know somebody who knows somebody; paving stones are there at your feet, no contest!
 
It's not the guns or the knives that is the problem. In the United States people have always had guns and knives. When I was in school nearly every boy in school had a knife in his pocket. But if two boys got into a fight they fought with fists, no thought of pulling out a knife.

There was also guns in nearly every household. But there were no mass murders.

Something has gone haywire with the attitudes of people. I believe lack of discipline both at home and in schools plays a big part. And all the publicity by the media keeps it going.

All these crimes,gun and knife, are committed by people. Yet the only thing the uninformed among us can think of is to blame the guns (or knives).

People can and will find a way to do harm if they want to. What we need to figure out is WHY do they want to. And what can we do to make them not want to any more.
 
I agree; but it is interesting comparing our different perspectives, and how they may have arisen.
i also agree that violence has got much worse since I was young.... I still think that a lot of middle-class whites blame it on 'the others' where's domestic violence, for example, happens everywhere, but that is not yet admitted to.
 
Well said Rkunsaw, I agree. We didn't have any guns in my home when I was growing up, but I had relatives and friends who did. Back then, people could have guns and rifles throughout their homes, not in gun safes or with trigger locks either. The children were taught to respect guns, and they learned from the family how to clean them and use them, even young toddlers were taught not to touch them. Many of the guns were loaded and ready to go if needed, because if they weren't they'd be considered useless in an emergency. We have a loaded pistol ready to go at home, and have had it that way for decades. Luckily there's never been an intruder, where we needed to use it. I would not be alone without it. I'd have no trouble at all killing someone that was going to kill or hurt me or my family. Like they say, outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns.

Like you said, lack of discipline, parental guidance, having both parents involved with raising the children, putting them on drugs like Ritalin at a young age, and anti-depressants as teens, on and on...all these things contribute to the problem nowadays. Nobody is there to teach them that there are consequences for their actions, and they have no role models. The kids and teens are bored, because the parents neglected to do their jobs, guide them with hobbies/activities and raise them with respect and empathy for others. Some think that spending 8 hours a day on violent video games, instead of going out and interacting with other kids, has a negative effect on the thought process...I completely agree with that too. Kids who only know what they see on the video games and their facebook, have stunted thought processes and reasoning in the real world.
 
I think maybe you have hit the core of the problem nowadays, Seabreeze. Consequences for their actions.
US and UK recent history are very different when it comes to guns..... I have never seen one in real life.
but I am prepared to take responsibility for my actions...
 
Someone mentioned the American Civil War.
I think this is very pertinent to the American resistance to gun control measures that other societies regard as perfectly reasonable.
IMO Americans are very afraid/hostile towards their fellow countrymen. Perhaps the very large population is another factor.
 
Someone mentioned the American Civil War.
I think this is very pertinent to the American resistance to gun control measures that other societies regard as perfectly reasonable.
IMO Americans are very afraid/hostile towards their fellow countrymen. Perhaps the very large population is another factor.
Phil also mentioned the civil rights movement as another type of civil war; much more recent, and I think you have a very valid point.
our perceptive of American gun laws are SOO different from theirs.
 
I am afraid that us Brits don't understand your 'gun culture'. We prefer knives for some reason..

Same here Viv, we've gone slightly more machete lately, I put that down to the increased Asian gang influence though, 'we' are all good guys.

We've been down this gun laws track on previous threads. Incredibly sensibly, and worth a read if you're interested to get both sides of it in calm and common sense language. This one was a 'ripper'. https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/2144-The-blind-to-be-allowed-gun-permits

It is a 'cultural' thing because logic got drowned in the rubbery statistics figures years ago.

I like 'our' way better, keeping guns to a minimum works okay in OZ, but which way America goes with it is their business entirely.
Different cultural history stemming from a different social structure, different viewpoints, needs and reasons to those of us in the UK, OZ 'n NZ.

Not for us to hand out advice, we look to be heading down the same track ourselves judging from the amount of illegal guns out there now so I for one am keeping my head down on the subject. They kindly answered the questions that puzzled me about what we see as 'gun-culture' I understand it a lot better and won't be pushing an opinion on it from this far away.
 
There's a umber of things that could have contributed to our gun society other than the constitution, Civil War, Civil Rights but I think rkansaw and Seazbreeze more or less hit it on the head with their comments.

I've been blaming the problem on too many guns, but we've always had guns and knives. When 12 years old I was given a .22 rifle to hunt with. Most kids had a .22 single shot. I've carried a pocket knife since before I started to school. I never thought about shooting anyone or stabbing anyone. Why. I was disciplined. I wasn't allowed to freely roam anywhere I wanted to go. My parents kept tabs on me. I've had my share of fisticuffs. The thought of using something else to hurt someone was out of the question. Never thought of.

One parent may have contributed something. It was not guns but lack of discipline and respect for people and property, and manners. I knew a number of kids who had one parent and turned out okay. I knew others who was always getting in trouble. It's not guns. It's something else.
 


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