Do you think men are losing their masculinity?

Old Salt said:
So you think being nice is a pretense? Being themselves meaning what? Strong, silent, dominant? Don't put us into a box! Shamefully, I have been doing this with women all of my life, by putting them on a pedestal for being the sweet, nourishing, gentle creatures many of them aren't! :)
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Oh Dear. I guess I need to explain. Nice Guy syndrome is when in order to keep others happy a man routinely subordinates his legitimate needs. Often this is in regards to women, but it can also be on the job, in the church, at the club, etc.

I treat women with great respect and will bend over backwards to make them happy and be loyal and loving, IF I don’t have to sell my soul to do so. There is that line in a song by Bob Dylan - Don’t Think Twice It’s All Right. The line is “I gave her my heart, but she wanted my soul”. That’s not a win/win deal, IMO. And it’s a great example of how a man can give up his masculinity.
 
Frankly some men do not know how to act anymore ... act like men of past and called names .... act like the complete "non manly type " they become the "best friend" role.
Many women in many studies conducted over a few years........ show women pick the more manly type even in voice recordings they prefer the deeper tones.
Even look at those in movies and ads ........ women looking for a Jason Momoa or other manly actors of various generations ........... heck I cannot even remember names of actors who fill all the best friend / sidekick roles.
 
Old Salt said:
Don't put us into a box! Shamefully, I have been doing this with women all of my life, by putting them on a pedestal for being the sweet, nourishing, gentle creatures many of them aren't! :)
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I've avoided responding on this issue but being in a confessional mood right now, I admit that I have put women on pedestals in my younger days, all of them for no other reason than they were women. OK, not quite on pedestals, but more like I was undeserving of any and all of them in their perfection. That's unrealistic. Some are more perfect than others, and some have serious issues that are untenable. This is not a matter of who's better, men or women? To Hell with that. The fact is, we all have good points and bad, neither gender is better than the other. The point is, treat all people with courtesy and respect, and don't make assumptions based on stereotypes, either our own or society's. It's not a good way to form relationships. We can have our quirks and individual tastes that will effect our relationships, but learn about those with time. Don't try to put the opposite sex in a box. There is no box. And if there is just find the right box.
 
Brookswood said:
Oh Dear. I guess I need to explain. Nice Guy syndrome is when in order to keep others happy a man routinely subordinates his legitimate needs. Often this is in regards to women, but it can also be on the job, in the church, at the club, etc.
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But that is one quality that is expected of a pastor! We are to subordinate legitimate needs in order to bring a bit of happiness to others!*** We do it out of love for others but it can be exhausting! But I do get what you're saying in the rest of your post and am grateful that you responded!

***Heaven help us, but we are not always successful All we can do is to try to live up to this:

John 15:13-16 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
 
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Jules said:
IMO, that’s a good thing. Good riddance to road rage, bullying, street fights.
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I could give you some details that would probably change your opinion. The parenting class that CPS sent Paxton's mother to was called Bonding Class, and it basically taught Paxton and his abusive mother that she was his only authority.

I'd reported the mother's abuse, and so did Pax's doctor and his preschool teacher, but mother denied it. I even took photos of his injuries when she left him with me on the weekends. I'm certain his caseworker never opened that email.

But anyway, Paxton's mother became very Gestapo-esque after she started that class, and that's an accurate characterization. She loved that class.

Her abuse only got worse, and Paxton only became more depressed and, worse than that, quiet. He stopped talking about it and stopped trying to defend himself against her. He just curled up and took the abuse.

I got that from 3 people who witnessed it first-hand; his father and his father's sister, who lived with Paxton and his mother, and his paternal grandfather, who owned the house they all rented.
(they refused to testify against her in court, so criminal charges were dropped)
 
Jondalar7 said:
There are no John Waynes today
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And maybe just as well. I believe John Wayne's image was as a masculine hero, but reality was different. He wasn't a war hero, during WWII he avoided going into the military. And there are certainly things he said and did that could be called racist.

He was not as bad as some folks make out, and in many ways a man of his time. But no hero to me... We can do better.

Why John Wayne Was Labeled a ‘Draft Dodger’ During World War II
https://www.military.com/history/why-john-wayne-was-labeled-draft-dodger-during-world-war-ii.html

Should we be surprised by John Wayne's racist and homophobic views?
https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...acist-homophobic-views-1971-playboy-interview

What he said about the Indians:

“I don’t feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them, if that’s what you’re asking. Our so-called stealing of this country from them was just a matter of survival. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves.”

Fact Check: Did John Wayne express racist views to blacks and American Indians?
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/...ews-to-blacks-and-american-indians/984860007/
 
Jeni said:
Frankly some men do not know how to act anymore ...
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Well I’m not acting. I prefer to keep it real.

Jeni said:
Many women in many studies conducted over a few years........ show women pick the more manly type even in voice recordings they prefer the deeper tones.
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Since I’m not interested in winning a whole harem’s worth of women why should I care. Neither do I want to be appealing to the broadest swath of women. I’m happily monogamous. I’m not a male pigeon who just can’t help strutting in front of any group of hens. I’m a male human being interested in the best aspects of humanity. My wife has experienced a lot of toxic masculinity growing up in the fifties. She was specifically looking for something else. The bulk of women in my generation were overly made up and always spoke at the high end of their register who presented themselves in self depreciating ways, unwilling to express an opinion. No thank you.

I was a real guy looking for a real gal and found what I wanted as did she and we prefer people who keep it real for friends. Neither of us is flirtatious or on the make. My first wife was more soft spoken, insecure and demure. I soon tired of that.
 
JustDave said:
I've avoided responding on this issue but being in a confessional mood right now, I admit that I have put women on pedestals in my younger days, all of them for no other reason than they were women. OK, not quite on pedestals, but more like I was undeserving of any and all of them in their perfection. That's unrealistic. Some are more perfect than others, and some have serious issues that are untenable. This is not a matter of who's better, men or women? To Hell with that. The fact is, we all have good points and bad, neither gender is better than the other. The point is, treat all people with courtesy and respect, and don't make assumptions based on stereotypes, either our own or society's. It's not a good way to form relationships. We can have our quirks and individual tastes that will effect our relationships, but learn about those with time. Don't try to put the opposite sex in a box. There is no box. And if there is just find the right box.
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That’s a great post Dave. 😊
 
Paco Dennis said:
Traditional Standards Of Masculinity and Being a Man
  1. Being perceived as “weak” due to crying or showing fear.
  2. Emphasis on physical strength.
  3. Professional Success.
  4. Being the “breadwinner” of the family.
  5. Exerting dominance in relationships.
  6. Being assertive.
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Thank goodness most of the men I know have discarded these antiquated, artificial ideas of "what makes a man a MAN". (and I am not saying, PD, that you have such ideas, just adding on to your post)

1. Being perceived as “weak” due to crying or showing fear.
My spouse is an amateur military historian and a 60+year wargamer. He cried the night we buried one of his best friends, a delightful, talented, beautiful woman who was killed by a member of her own family. I cried with him. He cried when his mom died, too. I can't imagine why anyone would diss him for feeling emotional.

2. Emphasis on physical strength.
As soon as we return to a caveman culture, that will be crucially important. Until then: let's see, our general contractor is a woman, who has been successfully running her own business for over a decade. Her employees, all men, work for her and don't seem to have a problem with it. For myself, I can't remember having any trouble holding a hammer or wielding a gun. Spouse and I were in Chinese martial arts together. There's a saying in China: "Women are the tigers of the world." Very cool sentiment!

3. Professional Success.
Both of us decided that we wanted a decent work/life balance. It wasn't worth 55-60 hr work weeks to "get ahead." Instead, we eventually learned proper financial planning, had some bad luck but also good luck, and we both retired early. Oh, and about a year ago we caught our financial advisor flat-footed when we told him we were clearing twice as much monthly income now as when we were working! Not his fault - I hadn't kept him updated on our increased income when my pensions and Soc Sec finally started, eight years after I retired. Plus spouse's pension has a COLA, so we had forgotten to let him know what a decades' worth of 2-3% increases had brought to his total benefit.

4. Being the “breadwinner” of the family.
I out-earned my spouse for the first 20 yrs of our marriage. Didn't bother him a bit. I loved the various jobs I had, learned a lot. That balanced spouse's union job with retirement benefits, although towards the very end of his employment, he finally lucked out with a good supervisor who appreciated his extensive knowledge and hard work, so I actually had to make pretty strong arguments to get him to finally retire!

5. Exerting dominance in relationships.
Yup, that's me on the surface, but only superficially. I'm the verbal (I'm a Gemini, LOL), direct, 'what you see is what you get'. He's the steel fist in the velvet glove: he can hate your guts but you'll never know it - but if you get in his way he will invent something truly Machiavellian to get rid of you. In 50 yrs of being together, maybe 3 people have actually understood what kind of person my spouse actually is. It's a good thing he's lazy, or he might have been able to give Putin and Xi lessons in ruthlessness.

6. Being assertive.
See above. If I don't like you, you will know it without being told. Spouse is the type who you think likes you, when he could care less if he ever saw you again. He loves it when we go to buy cars - we walk in, I specify the car, and gradually the salesman tries to talk to him about the mechanics and tech specs. He just smiles and points to me. "Talk to her - she's the one who knows cars. I could care less what I drive."

I make most of the day to day decisions, including financial and legal; as I said, he's lazy. We talk about what to do, but getting it done? He prefers I take care of it. Especially financial, because I'm the one who actually enjoys reading global and domestic financial news.
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An excellent example of a Gen X's different interpretation of masculinity is my nephew, now 41 with 2 boys, 1 girl. He's an amazing father to his kids - his own father, one of our BFs, admits K is a far better father than he ever was to K - involved, supportive, and caring. It's taken his wife several years to gain the confidence to join him in the kitchen - he was, and remains, a far better cook than she is (our entire family is food-obsessed, including my younger brother who is a whiz at professional-quality garnishes like food carvings). It was by his insistence that the three houses they have owned as they moved around the US, were all immediately remodeled with new kitchens including pro-quality BlueStar gas ranges. He and I both like the NBA, the NFL, and fast cars. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any masculinity issues!
 
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Here is the thinking of one modern man:

https://www.artofmanliness.com/char...-to-manhood-in-the-21st-century/#introduction

Always Ready​

Men, real men who are good at being men, aren’t needed anymore in our modern world… until they are.

Who knows when the world will need men shaped and molded by the ancient ideal of manliness? Sure, life is for the most part comfortable and pleasant now and we really don’t need every man to be un vero uomo, but it’s hubristic and shortsighted to believe that it will always stay this way. Maybe the doomsayers and zombie apocalypse fans will be right and some natural or human upheaval will shake society so violently that we resort to a Hobbesian state of nature with marauding gangs wandering the grey landscape just like in The Road. I don’t know about you, but I want to know I could hack it in that sort of situation. I want to be able to look my wife and kids in the eye and say: “I’ll protect you and take care of you,” and mean it. I’d also want to surround myself with other good men, who were also good at being men — brothers with whom I could, as Cormac McCarthy puts it, “carry the fire” as we set out to re-build the world together.
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Pinky said:
I don't equate masculinity with acting macho.
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That's a good point. I think a lot of people confuse macho with masculine, including men. Maybe mostly men.

How do you characterize masculine, Pinky?

I've just always thought of it as the opposite of feminine. I don't think it's more complicated than that, but I could be wrong.
 
Murrmurr said:
That's a good point. I think a lot of people confuse macho with masculine, including men. Maybe mostly men.

How do you characterize masculine, Pinky?

I've just always thought of it as the opposite of feminine. I don't think it's more complicated than that, but I could be wrong.
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I think it's one of those words that can have more than one meaning. From Cambridge Dictionary: the characteristics that are traditionally thought to be typical of or suitable for men...... <which can be anything you want>
 
PeppermintPatty said:
I figured you would be.

It’s a topic that comes up that probably confuses me more than any other topic about humanity. Having a husband who is ex military who strongly disapproves of those unwilling to fight for their country, has taught me a lot about this type of loyalty but deep within, it’s always felt foreign.

Oddly enough I AM one to fight for what I believe in independently but have a difficult time accepting team rivalry as in war. I’m so opposed to violence that I have a difficult time accepting war as an honourable choice. For many, it wasn’t a choice but something they were made to do. Unfortunately, even those who were fortunate enough to survive, are left tormented for life with little to no help from the same government who sent them.

Most decisions made by those in charge seem to always revolve around power and money . Is war not one of them? All the equipment made to kill humanity created employment and revenue but at what cost?

To divide and conquer seems to be humanity’s biggest downfall and oddly enough, even our religions teach this.

For me, it’s the most baffling part of humanity that I doubt I’ll ever understand.
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I was in the military and therefore obviously ready and willing to fight for my country! What gets me though are the thoughtless and pious pronouncements that those who fell in the Vietnam war (and other unjustified interventions) died "FOR OUR FREEDOM!" The dead deserve better than that glib lie! How about: they died because they thought they were serving a noble cause? Or: they died because they weren't rich enough to avoid the draft?
 
Old Salt said:
I was in the military and therefore obviously ready and willing to fight for my country! What gets me though are the thoughtless and pious pronouncements that those who fell in the Vietnam war (and other unjustified interventions) died "FOR OUR FREEDOM!" The dead deserve better than that glib lie! How about: they died because they thought they were serving a noble cause? Or: they died because they weren't rich enough to avoid the draft?
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I'm going to jump up onto the soapbox with you on this one! The U.S.Vietnam War dead gave their lives responding to the orders they were required to carry out. Had nothing to do with "OUR FREEDOM" here in the U.S., or that the South Vietnamese people asked for help. It was the military dictator Nguyễn Cao Kỳ that asked for U.S. support. The average South Vietnamese rice farmer was content with harvesting rice, and having a healthy water buffalo.
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Murrmurr said:
That's a good point. I think a lot of people confuse macho with masculine, including men. Maybe mostly men.

How do you characterize masculine, Pinky?

I've just always thought of it as the opposite of feminine. I don't think it's more complicated than that, but I could be wrong.
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Quietly self-assured .. not by showing dominance in a macho way.
That's my personal characterization of masculinity.
 
Nathan said:
The U.S.Vietnam War dead gave their lives responding to the orders they were required to carry out. Had nothing to do with "OUR FREEDOM" here in the U.S., or that the South Vietnamese people asked for help. It was the military dictator Nguyễn Cao Kỳ that asked for U.S. support. The average South Vietnamese rice farmer was content with harvesting rice, and having a healthy water buffalo.
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You are right, of course. However that's not the story I remember being told at the time...
 
Many brave men did not want to go to war.

Many felt that it was wrong to kill under any circumstance and that war was not the solution to any problem. In the Second World War over 60,000 men refused to fight. Today, around the world, many still end up in prison for refusing to be conscripted.
 

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