End of the Womanly Woman

My mom was a homemaker and a womanly women as was my grandma.
she was always clean and neat by the time my dad got home, Mealtimes were at a certain hour and we all ate together.
My mom was always saying that even poor people could afford a bar of soap.
I chose to follow in their footsteps.
I worked part-time but always at a flexible job. If the kids got sick I was there for them. I do understand some women had to work.
The kids still don't understand why and how I do things in this day and age with so many modern convivences and take out food.
They still can't get over me not having a dishwasher and hanging clothes outside .
It is getting harder as I age and I'm sure I won't be able to keep it up but for now it gives me great satisfaction to do many things the old way.
When I go out to the supermarket I do wear pants and a blouse but what is most important is being neat and clean.
The sights I've seen around our little town is unbelievable.
I think we have advanced over the years but not in a good way.
Many years ago my mother in law would always say women ruined it for themselves. They wanted to get out of the house and work. It took jobs away from the men and now many households can't make it on one salary.
I'm not sure ,maybe there is some truth to that.
I'll probably get hammered for that statement but just call me old fashioned.
 
mellowyellow said:
It’s a dilemma, young women today skull shots with the boys at the bar, it’s acceptable practice these days. The thought of what could result from these seemingly innocent events, boggles the mind.
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About six months or so before lockdown, we were visiting family where we used to live in London. We took my wife's sister to a lovely pub-restaurant to treat her to a dinner, dined out. At the bar were a group of young woman all giggling and talking at once, they were most probably meeting up there to go on to somewhere else later. One of the young ladies announces: "Sorry girls, but I have got to guff!" (guff is Brit-speak for fart.) And she did, loud and proud, causing ever more giggling from the others. My sister-in-law was not impressed. "Dirty cow," she muttered, now that made me smile.
 

Aunt Marg said:
That's not really fair now is it, Pepper?

To accuse others of being "whiners" for simply lending their views and opinions related to honest thread conversation?
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Shucks ma'am, maybe not but I'm just thinking in the feelings of those being criticized. I remember my life & feelings really well. I remembered being a kid really well, and when I had mine I raised them as I wished I had been, even if my methods weren't so popular with the neighborhood mommies. I did really well in the job and it is the best job I ever had. It's their lives, their world, and they will do as bad or good as we and others have without all our sage "advice."

Nothing wrong with our gabbing about it amongst ourselves, I guess!
 
MarciKS said:
@Aunt Marg
well i spent most of my life in my blue jeans. i hate dresses. always have. i used to dress nicer when i had someone in my life but honestly after seeing what men look at and what they like nowadays...i don't even bother. i'm not running around in tight skirts and tops with cleavage displayed for the world to see. i'm ok with looking a little homely. if i was gonna go to dinner i wouldn't mind dressing a little nicer. some of the leggings and tunics look prettier than what i normally wear. plus i would do hair and light make-up but those situations don't come along anymore so i don't bother.
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And that's fine, no one here is criticizing you on that front, Marci.

By no means have I read thus far that women who wear jeans and don't wear dresses aren't womanly, however, the distinction between today's female dress code vs yesteryears female dress code is stark, and IMO today's trampy, trashy, and slutty apparel that I all too often see doesn't exemplify that of a womanly woman.
 
There are many things working against women today, especially those who are divorced or separated – single mothers with children. What is a young mother supposed to do if she no longer has a partner? sit around for the rest of her life, devoting all her time to her home and children. Not likely, she needs to get out there and find someone else. So she joins the girls at the bar downing the shots and often goes home alone or with a man who is only interested in sex.

This must be soul destroying for women today. After failed attempts on dating sites and bad experiences with men who are only interested in sex, today’s single mother is not in a happy place.
 
horseless carriage said:
About six months or so before lockdown, we were visiting family where we used to live in London. We took my wife's sister to a lovely pub-restaurant to treat her to a dinner, dined out. At the bar were a group of young woman all giggling and talking at once, they were most probably meeting up there to go on to somewhere else later. One of the young ladies announces: "Sorry girls, but I have got to guff!" (guff is Brit-speak for fart.) And she did, loud and proud, causing ever more giggling from the others. My sister-in-law was not impressed. "Dirty cow," she muttered, now that made me smile.
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That would have been my mom to a T, Horseless.
 
Ruth n Jersey said:
My mom was a homemaker and a womanly women as was my grandma.
she was always clean and neat by the time my dad got home, Mealtimes were at a certain hour and we all ate together.
My mom was always saying that even poor people could afford a bar of soap.
I chose to follow in their footsteps.
I worked part-time but always at a flexible job. If the kids got sick I was there for them. I do understand some women had to work.
The kids still don't understand why and how I do things in this day and age with so many modern convivences and take out food.
They still can't get over me not having a dishwasher and hanging clothes outside .
It is getting harder as I age and I'm sure I won't be able to keep it up but for now it gives me great satisfaction to do many things the old way.
When I go out to the supermarket I do wear pants and a blouse but what is most important is being neat and clean.
The sights I've seen around our little town is unbelievable.
I think we have advanced over the years but not in a good way.
Many years ago my mother in law would always say women ruined it for themselves. They wanted to get out of the house and work. It took jobs away from the men and now many households can't make it on one salary.
I'm not sure ,maybe there is some truth to that.
I'll probably get hammered for that statement but just call me old fashioned.
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As always, Ruth, another lovely post.

I side with your MIL's words, and believe there's a lot of truth behind them.

Call me old-fashioned, too. 🔨
 
Dana said:
Well then! When I made this observation in Seabreeze’s thread a couple of days ago “End of the manly man” .... ”Now that I have a rather obscure vision of what a "manly man" is supposed to be. Wonder what a womanly woman is? Or should this be a new thread! “ (Dana)… I never expected this codswallop (ROFL).

To begin with:There have been bad men, unkempt men, uneducated men, men who are violent towards women all through the ages. The same applies to women.

On the other hand, there have been good men, men who take care of their appearance, who are educated and treat women and everyone else with respect and caring all through the ages. The same applies to women.

As far as I am concerned, parents have a responsibility to teach their children (males and females) to be self sufficient. My husband and I did just that. Our boys and our girls can all cook a decent meal, put a button on a garment, iron it, change a car tyre (if needed), gosh if the Queen of England can do that so can my girls.

I look at our children now and I could burst with pride because they are adaptable, can hold their own in most situations and are still “masculine or feminine” … whatever the hell that means!

Teach your children well and they will grow well...

**********
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Basically, you're attempting to determine a womanly woman or a manly man by their appearance? Wolf in sheep's clothing? Modern women and men are the same today as yesterday, only their names are changed to protect the innocent. Seriously, are you the same person today than 40 or 50 years ago? In a way, you're the same person, but adapted to present living conditions in the same way changing addresses in time.

What is the stereotypical female today? Is she a womanly woman of modern day living? Is she better or worse than previous predecessors of the past?
 
MarciKS said:
i don't think you're whiners but i think expecting things to be as they were all those years ago seems a bit unrealistic to me. not judging just saying. times were very different then and people are very different now.
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Yes, things are different. The college interns I have encountered when doing contract engineering work over the last few years and even before, were all very intelligent, well dressed, and well behaved. I doubt that has changed over the years.

What I see that seems to have changed is what the teachers I have talked to say about life in the classroom. Apparently discipline is a real problem these days. Whatever we want to attribute those changes to, is up for grabs. However, long time teachers certainly seem to remember that while there was the occasional problem student, now there seem to be many more such students.

I do remember when I was growing up, my mother would occasionally take short substitute teaching work, as in when a teacher would be out for a few days or a week. She always said that the kids in our part of town were more problematic (i.e. discourteous and disruptive) than the Mexican-American kids over in San Fernando. Those kids were brought up to respect their elders, while many of the white kids in our part of town were (according to my mother) "privileged".

There is always that element of "when I was a kid we walked uphill 20 miles both ways to school in 12 feet of snow", but talking to real teachers with long term experience does tell a story that has been borne out in local news reports and such. I remember the main local TV station used to pick various subjects for an in-depth news report once a week or so.

One time, they followed a "troubled" middle school student who was always in trouble for acting up in class or not showing up at all. The school repeatedly tried to contact the parents for a conference to discuss the problem, but both parents worked ridiculous hours and neither could be bothered. That is just one case, but it does reflect what a number of teachers complain about both in person and in the media.

Tony
 
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Aunt Marg said:
In keeping with the same theme as SeaBreeze's thread... "end of the manly man", found here - https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/end-of-the-manly-man.2319/

I'll start. When I was growing up (1960's), regardless of whether a woman was a fulltime homemaker, a fulltime stay-at-home mother, or whether she held down a fulltime or part-time job, women looked good and carried themselves well.

Hair and makeup, impeccable, their dress, clean, neat, and stylish, their fingernails, manicured and painted... a definite stark difference to that of what I often observe today.

Children were always dressed nice, they were kept clean and fed, they were well-mannered, respectful, and more often than not, children were seen, not heard... a reflection as to how women themselves were back in the day, the values they lived by, in addition to the values they instilled upon their children... boy, have times ever changed.

Homes were meticulous, the laundry washed, dried, stacked, folded, and neatly stowed away, everything was organized, homemade meals were prepared from scratch and with pride, and all was served within a specific timeframe in accordance with the day. i.e. Children arrived home from school at such and such a time... the man of the house arrived home from his day in the office at such and such a time.

There was no need for a man of the house to hold the woman of the family's hand (figuratively speaking), for the woman ensured all in the home was taken care of, and she took her job seriously, and she did it without whining or complaining. She made sure she lived up to her end of things, and she was always together.

She mended, fixed, repaired, and altered clothing, she canned, cooked, baked, took care of the children, and cleaned, and if that weren't enough, she took care of the shopping and bill paying, too. The womanly woman really was on top of her game.

I know, because my own mother was a womanly woman, and they just don't make them like that anymore, and the ones that exist today are few and far between... a rarity.
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Where to start!
First I really hope you don’t take offence to anything I say here Marg as it’s only a different opinion and perspective than what you’ve written.

You did have a rarity childhood. You had parents who both loved you well and took care of you, your siblings and everything concerning the family & household.

Whether women stayed at home as housewives or worked, they still looked good?
Not ALL of them did. I know plenty of moms who drove their kids to school in their house coats and never wore make up.

Children were always dressed nicely, were kept clean and fed , were well mannered and respectful ? Perhaps in your circle of friends but in reality, not all were. You need to remember that people were also very pretentious back then. Keeping up with the Jones was the thing to do. Most people wanted to appear whatever ‘normal’ was for that day and age however we didn’t have modern technology so never fully understood how many men, women and children were getting abused.

People were afraid to speak up about abuse and the unmentionables so that’s how it was. Now years later we realize how many kids weren’t treated well by parents, schools, churches etc. due to the Internet. People who were different were too afraid to be themselves. Now we realize that it’s ok to be different. We don’t all have to act like Stepford Wives and let’s be real here...... we’re NOT!

Children were seen and not heard ..... a reflection of how women were back in the day?
What? Yes in my family children were seen and not heard but my mom was certainly heard and so am I today, just as YOU ARE! You speak your mind about anything and everything, not apparently like women back in the day. Do you really want to be a women seen and not heard like the womanly women?

Homes were meticulous, the laundry washed, dried, stacked, folded neatly and put away? Everything was organized, homemade meals from scratch and served within a timeframe ?
Children arrived from school at a certain time of day? Women insured the home was taken care of and did it without whining and complaining? 😂 Maybe in YOUR WORLD!
This most certainly was NOT the norm in mine nor many others.

You have written an example of what the perfect housewife and mom would be like back in the day and perhaps some people were fortunate to have this type of lifestyle but to suggest it was the norm, in my opinion, is , frankly, optimistic! Most people didn’t have this. You were just fortunate enough to.
 
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Keesha said:
Where to start!
First I really hope you don’t take offence to anything I say here Marg as it’s only a different opinion and perspective than what you’ve wrote.

You did have a rarity childhood. You had parents who both loved you well and took care of you, your siblings and everything concerning the family & household.

Whether women stayed at home as housewives or worked, they still looked good?
Not ALL of them did. I know plenty of moms who drove their kids to school in their house coats and never wore make up.

Children were always dressed nicely, were kept clean and fed , were well mannered and respectful ? Perhaps in your circle of friends but in reality, not all were. You need to remember that people were also very pretentious back then. Keeping up with the Jones was the thing to do. Most people wanted to appear whatever ‘normal’ was for that day and age however we didn’t have modern technology so never fully understood how many men, women and children were getting abused.

People were afraid to speak up about abuse and the unmentionables so that’s how it was. Now years later we realize how many kids weren’t treated well by parents, schools, churches etc. due to the Internet. People who were different were too afraid to be themselves. Now we realize that it’s ok to be different. We don’t all have to act like Stepford Wives and let’s be real here...... we’re NOT!

Children were seen and not heard ..... a reflection of how women were back in the day?
What? Yes in my family children were seen and not heard but my mom was certainly heard and so am I today, just as YOU ARE! You speak your mind about anything and everything, not apparently like women back in the day. Do you really want to be a women seen and not heard like the womanly women?

Homes were meticulous, the laundry washed, dried, stacked, folded neatly and put away? Everything was organized, homemade meals from scratch and served within a timeframe ?
Children arrived from school at a certain time of day? Women insured the home was taken care of and did it without whining and complaining? 😂 Maybe in YOUR WORLD!
This most certainly was NOT the norm in mine nor many others.

You have written an example of what the perfect housewife and mom would but like back in the day and perhaps some people were fortunate to have this type of lifestyle but to suggest it was the norm, in my opinion, is , frankly, optimistic!
Most people didn’t have this. You were just fortunate enough to.
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I appreciate your input, Keesha, and take no offence to anything stated.

There's a lot mentioned, hardly time for me to digest everything, so will be coming back to it as I have the time.
 
Sassycakes said:
It's funny how this brought back a memory of my friend's Mom when we were growing up. Every night before her husband came home from work she would fix herself up. Do her hair, put on her makeup, and a pretty dress. We found out years later that the whole time she was doing that he was dating other women and even had a room he rented to entertain himself with the ladies.
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Classic; happened all the time back in the 50s, 60s & later. Happened to my mom and most of my stepmothers, happened to the mothers of most of my friends. Don't remember *at all* the men going to the effort that the women were. Not. At. All. So, phooey on those days
 
Talk about how women dressed years ago...

I was probably 10 years old and went down the street to a friend's house. I knocked on the door to see if he could come out to play. His mother answered the door and she was completely naked. Yep! Not a stich on. That image is still burned into my memory because it was the first time I had seen a woman naked. These days, some may come close to that, but that was one in a million. What are the chances?!?!?!?

By the way, I have absolutely no recall as to whether my friend was home or not, though I doubt it. :ROFLMAO: o_O

Tony
 
fuzzybuddy said:
If you can't find a "Manly Man", or a "Womanly Woman", maybe what you are seeking is an image that personally appeals to you. It is your romanticized ideal of masculinity, or femininity. Not many people can live up to an image. To be honest, the thing about manly men, and womanly women sounds more like sour grapes.
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I think you may be confusing this with "body image".
 
Social class or class has nothing to do with what you wear to the supermarket etc. That is a behavioural thing.
"Social classes are groupings of individuals in a hierarchy, usually based on wealth, educational attainment, occupation, income, and membership in a subculture or social network".
I have no qualms about wearing a track suit or jeans and sneakers to the supermarket, in fact, I do it quite often. If I didn't have time to fix my hair, I slap a cap on! As long as I am tidy and my clothes are clean, I don't see what it has to do with anyone. I do not have time to check makeup or primp myself every time I leave the house. Besides, the only make up I wear on a daily basis is lipstick! Open my closet door at home though and you will see a variety of gorgeous outfits, but in my book, you dress according to the occasion.
 
Gaer said:
I think you may be confusing this with "body image".
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I'm sorry, Gael, I mean what is considered manly or womanly, as in non-physical characteristics. Is what is considered manly or womanly more by what you want and need than what is.

At least finally, there is something to discuss here. There's not much to discuss with "Happy Brithday to..."
 
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MarciKS said:
i don't much care for the pajamas in public thing but as long as they're clean and their hair is combed and they're actually in clothes that cover them...i'm good with it.
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I was going to mention that one as well ..... pajamas and often items that do not fit and all sorts of things hanging out.

i saw a woman probably in her 50's in a supermarket with a mesh football shirt on and NOTHING under no bra etc..... with pajama bottoms.

often the pajamas are filthy and they look like they just slept in the trash....

i do not expect someone to dress like a Doris Day movie............. but at least look as you did not just escape from being held hostage in a car trunk for 3 days.
Wearing clothes that fit .... IMO the public does not need to see underwear or butt crack or other body parts....or half shirts with huge bellies hanging out

Honestly I have also seen this at job interviews where the young lady hanging out of her shirt and flip flops could not believe they did not give her a full interview......
i try to wear items that i could be seen at work in ...
I have gone to hardware store in sweatpants buying soil, mulch and flowers but they were clean not stained up as if i stole them off a bum in an alley. both sexes have done this sort of thing ...
 
Aunt Marg said:
In keeping with the same theme as SeaBreeze's thread... "end of the manly man", found here - https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/end-of-the-manly-man.2319/

I'll start. When I was growing up (1960's), regardless of whether a woman was a fulltime homemaker, a fulltime stay-at-home mother, or whether she held down a fulltime or part-time job, women looked good and carried themselves well.

Hair and makeup, impeccable, their dress, clean, neat, and stylish, their fingernails, manicured and painted... a definite stark difference to that of what I often observe today.

Children were always dressed nice, they were kept clean and fed, they were well-mannered, respectful, and more often than not, children were seen, not heard... a reflection as to how women themselves were back in the day, the values they lived by, in addition to the values they instilled upon their children... boy, have times ever changed.

Homes were meticulous, the laundry washed, dried, stacked, folded, and neatly stowed away, everything was organized, homemade meals were prepared from scratch and with pride, and all was served within a specific timeframe in accordance with the day. i.e. Children arrived home from school at such and such a time... the man of the house arrived home from his day in the office at such and such a time.

There was no need for a man of the house to hold the woman of the family's hand (figuratively speaking), for the woman ensured all in the home was taken care of, and she took her job seriously, and she did it without whining or complaining. She made sure she lived up to her end of things, and she was always together.

She mended, fixed, repaired, and altered clothing, she canned, cooked, baked, took care of the children, and cleaned, and if that weren't enough, she took care of the shopping and bill paying, too. The womanly woman really was on top of her game.

I know, because my own mother was a womanly woman, and they just don't make them like that anymore, and the ones that exist today are few and far between... a rarity.
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Agree, there was so much pride in looking good. We did go out with rollers in our hair. :)
 
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