Equality for men

Here is another quote to ponder.

"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured." - Mark Twain
 

Dragonlady said:
Again, it is condescending - implying women mindlessly follow the leader
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Never implied that at all. That's your over imagination working overtime again.

Just look at the posts.

Have the men all stuck together here or were there some dissenting opinions?

Where there any dissenting opinions from the females side of things or are they all in agreement?

I find that quite often. Even take a look on media and the men dissenting with those who are taking advantage and committing sexual assaults .

We had a saying at work. Never hire a guy for a salesman if he has been accused of rape.
 
Olivia said:
So, Traveler, if a female poster started a thread stating that the male members of the human species are nothing but Neanderthal hulks that use women, would you and other males on this board not be all over the thread disputing that claim?
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We would immediately point out to you that we believe in the theory of evolution and are no longer Neandethal hulks.

Men have a predeliction of using logic in their arguments.
 
This is many moons ago.

At our golf couse. Tuesdays was ladies day so they had a special lunch at a reduced price.

One of our males sat down and ordered the ladies lunch. They said it was for ladies only.

He said it wasn't fair that ladies had special privileges.

Guess if he won his point? This is many moons ago. The guy was a doctor.
 
Camper6 said:
We would immediately point out to you that we believe in the theory of evolution and are no longer Neandethal hulks.

Men have a predeliction of using logic in their arguments.
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Exactly. You would feel justified in disputing that assertion.
 
I have noticed one hell of a lot of posts where people have invented scenarios to support their claims. No one has said, on this thread, that women are stupid or that they are not capable of doing a wide variety of jobs. As a matter of fact I have posted that women could easily do many jobs in the military and most other areas. But that has been totally ignored.

However, when I am told that women can do anything that a man can do, I find that exceedingly naïve. I am even told that a woman can beat a man in the boxing ring. Well, I suppose that is true if the man is elderly and the woman is young, fit and highly trained. At age 71, with a bum ticker I have no doubt that a trained martial artist female could do a job on me. But what does that prove ? Absolutely nothing !

Now, SifuPhil has stated that a woman could, within the same weight class and with the same training, do quite well against a man.
Really ? Manny Pacquaio weighs 145 lbs and stands 5'6" and is considered the greatest pound for pound boxer that ever lived. Are people so out of touch with reality that they actually think ANY woman could last more than a few seconds against Manny ?

Women have brought up the subject of rape as evidence that they have suffered. What rape has to do with the subject of this thread ? I advocated in the OP that men and women should be treated exactly the same way when it comes to being required to register for the draft.
I have advocated that men should be given a fair chance to gain custody of their child. Why is that so threatening ?
 
Traveler said:
I have noticed one hell of a lot of posts where people have invented scenarios to support their claims. No one has said, on this thread, that women are stupid or that they are not capable of doing a wide variety of jobs. As a matter of fact I have posted that women could easily do many jobs in the military and most other areas. But that has been totally ignored.

However, when I am told that women can do anything that a man can do, I find that exceedingly naïve. I am even told that a woman can beat a man in the boxing ring. Well, I suppose that is true if the man is elderly and the woman is young, fit and highly trained. At age 71, with a bum ticker I have no doubt that a trained martial artist female could do a job on me. But what does that prove ? Absolutely nothing !

Now, SifuPhil has stated that a woman could, within the same weight class and with the same training, do quite well against a man.
Really ? Manny Pacquaio weighs 145 lbs and stands 5'6" and is considered the greatest pound for pound boxer that ever lived. Are people so out of touch with reality that they actually think ANY woman could last more than a few seconds against Manny ?

Women have brought up the subject of rape as evidence that they have suffered. What rape has to do with the subject of this thread ? I advocated in the OP that men and women should be treated exactly the same way when it comes to being required to register for the draft.
I have advocated that men should be given a fair chance to gain custody of their child. Why is that so threatening ?
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It's not the message; it's the delivery. And you know that very well.
 
Honestly, Traveler, I'm fairly certain you do feel genuinely unhappy about how some things have gone in your life because of what some other people have done to you. You don't say what they were, so it's really not easy to totally understand. I'm not going to say you're not justified, because personally for you, I'm sure you are. I don't think arguing on a message board about it, though, is really the best way to go. But, we all have our reasons.
 
Olivia said:
Honestly, Traveler, I'm fairly certain you do feel genuinely unhappy about how some things have gone in your life because of what some other people have done to you. You don't say what they were, so it's really not easy to totally understand. I'm not going to say you're not justified, because personally for you, I'm sure you are. I don't think arguing on a message board about it, though, is really the best way to go. But, we all have our reasons.
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I appreciate your fair post. I was never trying to argue anything about my feelings on the message board. All I was attempting to do was to get people to think about equally and fairness as it relates to both men and women. It was never my intention to argue that women should not have equal rights. I merely wished to state that men also have some valid complaints. But unfortunately, that concept threatens some people.
 
Traveler said:
I appreciate your fair post. I was never trying to argue anything about my feelings on the message board. All I was attempting to do was to get people to think about equally and fairness as it relates to both men and women. It was never my intention to argue that women should not have equal rights. I merely wished to state that men also have some valid complaints. But unfortunately, that concept threatens some people.
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Misunderstandings do happen on message boards all the time. The way you stated your argument just now would not have threatened anyone and would probably have gathered a lot of agreements. For those who wouldn't have--agreed, that is-- then that where that agree to disagree comes in.
 
Olivia said:
Misunderstandings do happen on message boards all the time. The way you stated your argument just now would not have threatened anyone and would probably have gathered a lot of agreements. For those who wouldn't have--agreed, that is-- then that where that agree to disagree comes in.
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Thank you. This seems like a good place for me to step out of this thread. It is just going in circles anyway.
 
Good, I appreciate that Camper. My dad only retired three years ago at 87 at a very important upper management job. He's now almost 91 and he still has the love and respect of the people that had been under him because of the person he was during that time and still gets together with them all the time. He's just about to turn 91 and my deepest fear is eventually losing him.

God bless you, Camper.
 
Traveler said:
For the last 100 years women have been demanding, and receiving, more and more equality. Ok, fair enough ! But should this not also be a 2-way street ?

What about men ? Do we not also deserve equality ? Men, overwhelmingly, are still considered the primary bread winners. True, some women do out earn men, but that is a tiny fraction of all 2 income households. The primary responsibility for all men, world-wide, is to provide. In todays world, that is an outmoded sexist concept. It needs to change.

And what about equality in the family court ? While it is true that a few men do gain full and complete custody of the children, the odds of that happening are slim if the woman is also seeking custody. This too needs to change.

During times of national emergency men can be drafted into military service and forced to fight and possibly die or be mutilated. Women on the other hand are not even required to register for the draft at age 18. If women choose to join, that is their prerogative, but it is not required. Why ? Because they are female.

In the every day world of most couples, it is understood that he, the man, will do certain tasks. If, in the middle of the night, there is a noise that sounds like someone has broken into the house, it is universally accepted that the man will go and deal with the problem while the woman stays safe and calls 911 for help. Ok, fine. We are larger and better equipped to cope with such emergencies. Anyone who is truly honest will agree that it is HIS job because he is a man. But, God help the man who dares to say, or even suggest, that X, Y or Z is the woman's job to take care of any specific task. Seriously, people, can you even imagine what would happen if a man dared to say, " You're the woman, you're supposed to cook". LOL

Even in the every day world of dating, men are expected to be the one to put his ego on the line and ask her for a date. Do some women take on that role ? Yes, I suppose, but it's damn rare. So, why do women wait for the man to do the asking ? Quite simple really. Women recognize that THEY have the power and there is no way they are going to give that up.

When it come time to propose marriage, 99% of the time it is the man who must go through certain steps. First he must spend, on average 2 months wages to acquire a diamond ring. Now, when it comes time to "pop the question", what must he do ? Right ! You guessed it. He gets down on one knee, offering up the diamond, and pleads for her hand in marriage. The symbolism is inescapable. Once again SHE has the power and SHE is requiring him to acknowledge this fact.

So, what is to be done ? If women are demanding and receiving equality is it not also fair for the man to have the same ? If women want all the rights and privileges of a man AND simultaneously keep all of the rights and privileges of being a woman then the same should apply to men.
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Lets see if the thread really has reached its conclusion or can be revived (rumours of its demise being premature :confused: ).

I can't explain why its taken so long to grab my interest but so many interesting and important questions were raised in the OP I thought it worth dragging up again.

Fathers rights is an area I feel I have some knowledge of when those kinds of discussions break out, and yet calls for equality in that area of public policy tend to lead to a situation where both parents have "equally few rights" rather than anything truly positive in my view. The old argument recognising differences between men and women's role both before the child is born and in the first year afterwards come to mind. Obviously men cannot carry the baby, and hence do not put their lives, and their figures at risk doing so, and men can't breastfeed the child, once again obviously, so how can family law recognise those facts whilst achieving the level of equality before the law some seek.

I have much sympathy for most of the other arguments in the OP however, and yet remember a case where I used to work regarding a particularly dirty job loading an incinerator. The female members of staff were reluctant to do the work and I supported them because if you have long hair, as most of the girls did, then you can understand them not wanting to work where it was so smokey and unpleasant, and have the smell sticking to them, though I admit it was an example of double standards.
 
Many of the points made by Traveler in his post are dated and obsolete, and have been considered passe for many years now. (Such as who initiates dates and marriage proposals). This is beating a dead horse.
And what do those things have to do with "rights," anyway?

The long hair issue is also pretty irrelevant. Some men have long hair, and if someone is doing that kind of work, whether they are male or female, they should be required to tuck their hair up into a hat or hair net, etc. Not exactly a "rights" issue.

How about concentrating on how much pay each person gets for doing the same work?
 
Yes, there should be Gender Equality without question, but I'm afraid this may never be, because Men are in charge and will probably always be in charge of all Earthly Ventures, even though Women have gained token advances.

What the world needs are more Theresa Mays governing all civilized regions of the world.

I'm sure that if Women were the leaders of the civilized world, they could find places for Men to fit in.

But if Artificial Intelligence ever reached a critical breakthrough, then Sexless Robots would rule the world, ending Genderism!

Harold
 
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grahamg said:
Lets see if the thread really has reached its conclusion or can be revived (rumours of its demise being premature :confused: ).

I can't explain why its taken so long to grab my interest but so many interesting and important questions were raised in the OP I thought it worth dragging up again.

Fathers rights is an area I feel I have some knowledge of when those kinds of discussions break out, and yet calls for equality in that area of public policy tend to lead to a situation where both parents have "equally few rights" rather than anything truly positive in my view. The old argument recognising differences between men and women's role both before the child is born and in the first year afterwards come to mind. Obviously men cannot carry the baby, and hence do not put their lives, and their figures at risk doing so, and men can't breastfeed the child, once again obviously, so how can family law recognise those facts whilst achieving the level of equality before the law some seek.

I have much sympathy for most of the other arguments in the OP however, and yet remember a case where I used to work regarding a particularly dirty job loading an incinerator. The female members of staff were reluctant to do the work and I supported them because if you have long hair, as most of the girls did, then you can understand them not wanting to work where it was so smokey and unpleasant, and have the smell sticking to them, though I admit it was an example of double standards.
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Hair is really no excuse for any woman not to do their job. There are caps women can wear to protect their hair. That would be an abuse.
 
Equal pay for equal work?

What is equal work?

Here in Ontario, such a law was passed. A secretary should get as much pay as the parking lot attendant was one example.

But here's the problem. The secretaries don't want the parking lot attendant's job when it comes up for bid. Because it's cold, it's raining, it's snowing, it needs maintenance so I don't consider the jobs equal. So now they have to hire a guy and if he goes for a raise, the secretaries should get one too.

Madness. Sheer madness trying to equate work in terms of equality.

On the other hand my son worked part time in the university he attended as a cameraman.

He got a raise because the females rates were legislated up.
 
grahamg said:
Lets see if the thread really has reached its conclusion or can be revived (rumours of its demise being premature :confused: ).

I can't explain why its taken so long to grab my interest but so many interesting and important questions were raised in the OP I thought it worth dragging up again.

Fathers rights is an area I feel I have some knowledge of when those kinds of discussions break out, and yet calls for equality in that area of public policy tend to lead to a situation where both parents have "equally few rights" rather than anything truly positive in my view. The old argument recognising differences between men and women's role both before the child is born and in the first year afterwards come to mind. Obviously men cannot carry the baby, and hence do not put their lives, and their figures at risk doing so, and men can't breastfeed the child, once again obviously, so how can family law recognise those facts whilst achieving the level of equality before the law some seek.

I have much sympathy for most of the other arguments in the OP however, and yet remember a case where I used to work regarding a particularly dirty job loading an incinerator. The female members of staff were reluctant to do the work and I supported them because if you have long hair, as most of the girls did, then you can understand them not wanting to work where it was so smokey and unpleasant, and have the smell sticking to them, though I admit it was an example of double standards.
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As there is some interest in keeping this thread alive, I'll continue.
It has been my contention, from the beginning, that men do not have all of the special privileges that women do. Being exempt from registering for the draft is but one of those special privileges. If women want totally equal rights, then they must shoulder the exact same responsibilities. Period.

I said previously, and I'll say it once more, any law that requires young men to register for the draft but NOT young women, is a law based of unconstitutional concepts. When one segment of society is required to do something, or prohibited from doing something, but another segment is exempt because of gender or race, religion etc, then that is clearly unconstitutional.

Women can not demand equal rights and then turn around and claim exemption because of gender. There are a number of burdens required of all its citizens. Taxes is one of those burdens required of all working citizens. The law which required one group to pay taxes and exempt a different group, would be struck down in the federal court system immediately. Thus, it is the same with selective service registration. Equal rights require equal burdens.
 

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