GB: No Freedom of Speech Anymore

[Antoli]

These kinds of 'discussions' pop up here every so often, and the pattern usually ends up the same, regardless of subject matter. One person tries to pin down a clear point to talk about, while another keeps shifting the target just enough that nothing ever settles. Before long, people start talking past each other and the thread stops resembling an actual conversation.

This one stopped being productive a few pages back. It’s become more about chasing each other’s framing than exploring the subject itself. When a point looks like it might narrow toward some clarity, it gets broadened again -- almost as if reaching a conclusion would be a problem. After a while it gets a bit repetitive and because of that even more predictable.

And sometimes it even turns into treating disagreement itself as proof of being right, which feels a bit silly and very predictable.

Fair points, but in this case the pattern wasn’t two people talking past each other. The issue was much simpler: a specific claim was made, several concrete examples were provided that directly challenged it, and one side repeatedly sidestepped those examples instead of addressing them.
From there, the thread didn’t spiral because the topic was too broad, it stalled because every time the discussion narrowed toward clarity, the goalposts shifted again. That’s why the exchange became repetitive.

Disagreement is normal. Avoiding the central point is what made it unproductive. If the examples had been engaged on their own terms, the discussion could have moved forward instead of looping.

 

[Antoli]

Guy, if you want to feel as though you won something, go ahead. There is only so many times one can say "I have addressed every one of your concerns", only to have the claim dismissed because.... wherever the goal post has been moved to..... So yes, take it as a win if it makes you feel good.

If you feel you simply must continue, then let's take it to PM's so everyone else doesn't have to see it.

Yawn...z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z

 

[VaughanJB]

Yawn...z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z

 

[VaughanJB]

Yawn...z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z

Seriously though - I am offering to continue the discussion, for as long as it takes to make you happy. I'll only do it via PM's though, since forum members have already expressed how they find this pointless.

The ball is in your court. Or are you only interested if we're filling a thread full of denials and accusations? I assume that if you really want to have the discussion, doing it via PM's isn't an issue.

 

[Magna-Carta]

This thread reads as though somone is on trial, with only one judge.

It's not discussion anymore, It’s a prosecution of one forum member.

 

[Antoli]

Seriously though - I am offering to continue the discussion, for as long as it takes to make you happy. I'll only do it via PM's though, since forum members have already expressed how they find this pointless.

The ball is in your court. Or are you only interested if we're filling a thread full of denials and accusations? I assume that if you really want to have the discussion, doing it via PM's isn't an issue.

PMs? I’m not signing up for the deluxe version of circular arguments. If clarity isn’t possible in the thread, it won’t magically appear in private.

 

[Magna-Carta]

Guy, if you want to feel as though you won something, go ahead. There is only so many times one can say "I have addressed every one of your concerns", only to have the claim dismissed because.... wherever the goal post has been moved to..... So yes, take it as a win if it makes you feel good.

If you feel you simply must continue, then let's take it to PM's so everyone else doesn't have to see it.

“PM would be an interesting test, actually. These kinds of back-and-forths rarely shift to private messages, partly because once the audience disappears, so does the incentive to keep it going. Without the stage, the energy tends to drop pretty quickly.

 

[Antoli]

This thread reads as though somone is on trial, with only one judge.

It's not discussion anymore, It’s a prosecution of one forum member.

If this is a trial, it’s only because the defendant keeps testifying against himself.

 

[VaughanJB]

“PM would be an interesting test, actually. These kinds of back-and-forths rarely shift to private messages, partly because once the audience disappears, so does the incentive to keep it going. Without the stage, the energy tends to drop pretty quickly.

Well, you might think my saying this is ridiculous, but the truth is I'm always aware that this is a space shared among many people. Each of us owe it to the others to keep things running smoothly. You, have expressed that this thread has been, in effect, hijacked by a back and forth. I think that is fair enough, and you're right.

At the same time, the other party appears to want to continue on with a discussion that will go nowhere. As such, I think the best/fairest way forward is to move it to PM's. That way the discussion can continue, and the rest of the members don't get affected by it. It just seems to be good housekeeping to me. I mean, I seriously doubt the general populace out there would want to read all of those posts, and indeed might simply be annoyed by them. so....

 

[Rakaia]

If this is a trial, it’s only because the defendant keeps testifying against himself.

If being the operative word, it looks like a squabble to me.

 

[VaughanJB]

PMs? I’m not signing up for the deluxe version of circular arguments. If clarity isn’t possible in the thread, it won’t magically appear in private.

Fair enough. Have a great day!

I offered it only because I didn't want you to feel as though I was just ignoring you or the topic. I am willing to continue in PM's if need be. If you don't want that - that's good too.

 

[Magna-Carta]

Fair points, but in this case the pattern wasn’t two people talking past each other. The issue was much simpler: a specific claim was made, several concrete examples were provided that directly challenged it, and one side repeatedly sidestepped those examples instead of addressing them.
From there, the thread didn’t spiral because the topic was too broad, it stalled because every time the discussion narrowed toward clarity, the goalposts shifted again. That’s why the exchange became repetitive.

Disagreement is normal. Avoiding the central point is what made it unproductive. If the examples had been engaged on their own terms, the discussion could have moved forward instead of looping.

I hear you -- I’m not really weighing in on who handled which point well or badly. I’m looking at the shape this thread took. Once it gets locked into “you didn’t answer X” vs. “yes I did,” it doesn’t matter how solid the original examples or arguments were, the thread just ends up grinding. This thread reached that point a long time ago.

When a discussion shifts from exploring a topic to policing each other’s responses, it pretty much loses the audience and the usefulness at the same time. I wonder how many people here think this thread has gone way beyond its sell by date.

 

[VaughanJB]

When a discussion shifts from exploring a topic to policing each other’s responses, it pretty much loses the audience and the usefulness at the same time. I wonder how many people here think this thread has gone way beyond its sell by date.

I'd wager all of them bar two.

 

[Magna-Carta]

I'd wager all of them bar two.

LOL..., ok, fair enough. I wasn't going to say it.

 

[Antoli]

Fair enough. Have a great day!

I offered it only because I didn't want you to feel as though I was just ignoring you or the topic. I am willing to continue in PM's if need be. If you don't want that - that's good too.

No problem at all, I didn’t think you were ignoring me. If you ever start ignoring me, I’ll know because the argument will finally stop reinventing itself.

 

[VaughanJB]

No problem at all, I didn’t think you were ignoring me. If you ever start ignoring me, I’ll know because the argument will finally stop reinventing itself.

Let it go man, it's just a forum discussion. There's plenty more to talk about.

 

[Antoli]

Let it go man, it's just a forum discussion. There's plenty more to talk about.

Oh come now, I did let it go; the yawn was the universal sign. You’re the one who kept shaking me awake and even put up a NoDoz billboard to keep the thread going.

 

[Sunny]

This seems to have stopped being a discussion about free speech, and has turned into an argument about having an argument. I get the feeling that like Elvis, most of the audience have "left the building."

 

[Antoli]

This seems to have stopped being a discussion about free speech, and has turned into an argument about having an argument. I get the feeling that like Elvis, most of the audience have "left the building."

Hi Sunny, I'm sure you would be more than welcome to weigh in on the free-speech issue itself if you wish to do so.

 

[hollydolly]

This seems to have stopped being a discussion about free speech, and has turned into an argument about having an argument. I get the feeling that like Elvis, most of the audience have "left the building."

No.I'm very intrsted in this..its about the fredom of Speech in the UK... if you're not interested Sunny.. fair enough.. but I wouldn't be in the US either...

 

[Sunny]

I am interested in the topic. My point was that this thread seems to have gotten way off the topic and is about PM's versus public quarrels.

Thank you for the invitation, Antoli. I don't know enough about free speech issues in Britain to have anything to add to the topic. When I visited England about 10 years ago, I enjoyed my visit to Hyde Park and thought the shouting speechmakers were clearly nuts but entertaining. One of them was an anti-feminist haranguing a mostly female crowd! And that sums up my knowledge of the subject.

 

[Lawrence00]

GB: No Freedom of Speech Anymore​

From USA news reporting, amateur reporters, and real videos shared by courageous UK natives, it's George Orwell's 1984. I would take a permanent holiday from that prison.

 

[RambleTamble]

We have a problem with our 1st Amendment right to free speech being violated here in the U.S., too, but since it's political, we can't discuss it.

 

[Paco Dennis]

It seems to me that creating images or language that is an invitation for violence should be illegal in the UK, America, and everywhere. Law makers can argue about expanding the law, but they will encounter fierce blow back.

 

[VaughanJB]

It seems to me that creating images or language that is an invitation for violence should be illegal in the UK, America, and everywhere. Law makers can argue about expanding the law, but they will encounter fierce blow back.

The issue is, while people may agree with you, the seem to be offended by the policing of it. Like, yeah it should be illegal, but if you arrest someone on suspicion of it, then people go up in arms about overreach. Each case needs to be examined on its own merits, and the worst place to read about it is in tabloid newspapers.