GB: No Freedom of Speech Anymore

[RambleTamble]

Seems to me that the "culture" he's supposed to assimilate to is one of thuggery, intolerance, and hatred. Perhaps that wasn't for him.

Compare that "thuggery, intolerance, and hatred" that's found in most theocratic Muslim nations.

I'm just asking, if they love their religion that much that they want to dedicate their lives to it, why are they moving to countries where they'd be a small minority? I'll answer that myself... They're trying to spread their religion. A lot of non-religious people and those who practice a different religion don't want that to happen to their country. That's what the protests are all about.

 

[Rakaia]

The way I see it, if you immigrate to another country, you should assimilate into their culture. You shouldn't expect their culture to adapt to your way of life.

Ooh that's a quaint post-colonial concept.

 

[VaughanJB]

Compare that "thuggery, intolerance, and hatred" that's found in most theocratic Muslim nations.

I'm just asking, if they love their religion that much that they want to dedicate their lives to it, why are they moving to countries where they'd be a small minority? I'll answer that myself... They're trying to spread their religion. A lot of non-religious people and those who practice a different religion don't want that to happen to their country. That's what the protests are all about.

Easy - because you religion isn't relevant to where you choose to live. What's wrong with being a small minority? I am not religious, so why should I care about what their religion says or does?

Also, your first sentence isn't relevant. I mean, are you saying Scotland has risen to the giddy heights of the worst Muslim nation on the planet? Weird.

Look, I'll be completely honest. I'm not going to debate this with you. I'm not going to have a back and forth on it. We clearly feel very differently - and for the record, so do many people in Scotland (the story I shared earlier was from Falkirk). I find some things said to be repulsive and sickening. They're truly below contempt. I'm just glad I don't have to spend a minute inside the heads of some people, it must be a terrible terrible place to be. Ironically, some like to be part of the problem, I guess.

I'm a Brit, and I don't agree with the sentiments you expressed. Freedom of religion is one of the things we should be proud of in our nation. I am not afraid of Muslims. I'd certainly stand beside them before I even considered being on the other side.

That's just about all you and I should exchange. I think I understand your stance, and that of your supporters. It's all very alien to me and represents the worst among us. You also know my own views.

IMO YMMV.

 

[RambleTamble]

Also, your first sentence isn't relevant. I mean, are you saying Scotland has risen to the giddy heights of the worst Muslim nation on the planet? Weird.

I didn't say anything even remotely like that.

My biggest problem with immigration is that it's causing a rise in authoritarianism in the U.S. and Europe. People don't want their respective cultures to change. They don't want to have to adapt to other cultures when they haven't gone anywhere. Many of them still live where they were born, and the same place their parents were born, and even their grandparents. They haven't changed, but their region is changing out from under them, and they don't like it, so they're supporting leadership that advocates putting an end to the excessive immigration into their countries, and that leadership is coming from authoritarians. That's all I'll say about that since I don't want to veer into politics.

 

[VaughanJB]

I didn't say anything even remotely like that!

My biggest problem with immigration is that it's causing a rise in authoritarianism in the U.S. and Europe. People don't want their respective cultures to change. They don't want to have to adapt to other cultures when they haven't gone anywhere. Many of them still live where they were born, and the same place their parents were born, and even their grandparents. They haven't changed, but their region is changing out from under them, and they don't like it, so they're supporting leadership that advocates putting an end to the excessive immigration into their countries. That's all I'll say about that since I don't want to veer into politics.

For me, you are actively promoting authoritarianism.

Tolerance, love of our fellow man, compassion, and understanding are foundational to the Christian faith. Christianity is key to my nation and what it represents (I say this as a non-believer). I certainly don't look to hate others. I'm an old man looking for reasons to love others, to have empathy.

Our culture in the UK has developed, evolved, and changed over the centuries. It's how countries grow, learn, and adapt. It's not a matter if it should change, only when it changes. In fact, the culture today is quite different from the one I grew up in, and I'm not talking about immigrants. Things just change.

I would also like to say that calm, rational, debate requires a good understanding of all points of view. Meaning, while you and I feel very differently about this, that does not mean I am for excessive immigration, let alone illegal immigration. Controls must be in place, and successive governments have done a poor job. They are constrained by agreements signed (we've discussed this before on the board) and by the laws in place.

I don't mind if people feel more strongly than I do, of course. But the vitriol and bare faced hatred I read is beyond the pale and does not represent the kind of human being I aspire to be. It must be horrible to live with that darkness, so if anything I feel pity for those who think this way. Something has gone very wrong, imo.

 

[January]

I didn't say anything even remotely like that.

My biggest problem with immigration is that it's causing a rise in authoritarianism in the U.S. and Europe. People don't want their respective cultures to change. They don't want to have to adapt to other cultures when they haven't gone anywhere. Many of them still live where they were born, and the same place their parents were born, and even their grandparents. They haven't changed, but their region is changing out from under them, and they don't like it, so they're supporting leadership that advocates putting an end to the excessive immigration into their countries, and that leadership is coming from authoritarians. That's all I'll say about that since I don't want to veer into politics.

You mean like British people did all over the world?? I don't think they bothered about whether the cultures of places they invaded had people who had lived there for many generations and if they wanted to adapt to western culture or religion.

Or is it only important when it is your way round??

Even though really no comparison,nobody in our countries now is forcibly taking land etc from indigenous people

. I live and work with people of different religions, backgrounds etc - no problem.
Of course culture is changing over time in many ways, it isnt a static thing. I'm sure people who have lived in Sctotland for generations aren't living as their grandparents did, regardless of the religions of others around them.

 

[Antoli]

You mean like British people did all over the world?? I don't think they bothered about whether the cultures of places they invaded had people who had lived there for many generations and if they wanted to adapt to western culture or religion.

Or is it only important when it is your way round??

Even though really no comparison,nobody in our countries now is forcibly taking land etc from indigenous people

. I live and work with people of different religions, backgrounds etc - no problem.
Of course culture is changing over time in many ways, it isnt a static thing. I'm sure people who have lived in Sctotland for generations aren't living as their grandparents did, regardless of the religions of others around them.

Bringing up British colonialism doesn’t rebut anything RambleTamble said. Empire and modern immigration aren’t remotely equivalent, and no one here is excusing what happened centuries ago. RambleTamble was describing present-day political reactions, not justifying historic conquest. Those are different issues, different eras, different dynamics.

 

[RambleTamble]

You mean like British people did all over the world?? I don't think they bothered about whether the cultures of places they invaded had people who had lived there for many generations and if they wanted to adapt to western culture or religion.

Or is it only important when it is your way round??

Hey, I'm not British.

 

[January]

I can see you are from US - so unless you are a full blood native american, your ancestors were people who came t o America and changed the culture of the people who had lived there for umpteen generations

 

[January]

Bringing up British colonialism doesn’t rebut anything RambleTamble said. Empire and modern immigration aren’t remotely equivalent, and no one here is excusing what happened centuries ago. RambleTamble was describing present-day political reactions, not justifying historic conquest. Those are different issues, different eras, different dynamics.

of course - it is ok when people same as me went to other countries but not when others come to mine.

same as the freedom of speech is important when people are same religion, dress etc as me - but not when they aren't