GB: No Freedom of Speech Anymore

VaughanJB said:
Seems to me that the "culture" he's supposed to assimilate to is one of thuggery, intolerance, and hatred. Perhaps that wasn't for him.
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Compare that "thuggery, intolerance, and hatred" that's found in most theocratic Muslim nations.

I'm just asking, if they love their religion that much that they want to dedicate their lives to it, why are they moving to countries where they'd be a small minority? I'll answer that myself... They're trying to spread their religion. A lot of non-religious people and those who practice a different religion don't want that to happen to their country. That's what the protests are all about.
 

RambleTamble said:
Compare that "thuggery, intolerance, and hatred" that's found in most theocratic Muslim nations.

I'm just asking, if they love their religion that much that they want to dedicate their lives to it, why are they moving to countries where they'd be a small minority? I'll answer that myself... They're trying to spread their religion. A lot of non-religious people and those who practice a different religion don't want that to happen to their country. That's what the protests are all about.
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Easy - because you religion isn't relevant to where you choose to live. What's wrong with being a small minority? I am not religious, so why should I care about what their religion says or does?

Also, your first sentence isn't relevant. I mean, are you saying Scotland has risen to the giddy heights of the worst Muslim nation on the planet? Weird.

Look, I'll be completely honest. I'm not going to debate this with you. I'm not going to have a back and forth on it. We clearly feel very differently - and for the record, so do many people in Scotland (the story I shared earlier was from Falkirk). I find some things said to be repulsive and sickening. They're truly below contempt. I'm just glad I don't have to spend a minute inside the heads of some people, it must be a terrible terrible place to be. Ironically, some like to be part of the problem, I guess.

I'm a Brit, and I don't agree with the sentiments you expressed. Freedom of religion is one of the things we should be proud of in our nation. I am not afraid of Muslims. I'd certainly stand beside them before I even considered being on the other side.

That's just about all you and I should exchange. I think I understand your stance, and that of your supporters. It's all very alien to me and represents the worst among us. You also know my own views.

IMO YMMV.
 

VaughanJB said:
Also, your first sentence isn't relevant. I mean, are you saying Scotland has risen to the giddy heights of the worst Muslim nation on the planet? Weird.
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I didn't say anything even remotely like that. :rolleyes:

My biggest problem with immigration is that it's causing a rise in authoritarianism in the U.S. and Europe. People don't want their respective cultures to change. They don't want to have to adapt to other cultures when they haven't gone anywhere. Many of them still live where they were born, and the same place their parents were born, and even their grandparents. They haven't changed, but their region is changing out from under them, and they don't like it, so they're supporting leadership that advocates putting an end to the excessive immigration into their countries, and that leadership is coming from authoritarians. That's all I'll say about that since I don't want to veer into politics.
 
RambleTamble said:
I didn't say anything even remotely like that! :rolleyes:

My biggest problem with immigration is that it's causing a rise in authoritarianism in the U.S. and Europe. People don't want their respective cultures to change. They don't want to have to adapt to other cultures when they haven't gone anywhere. Many of them still live where they were born, and the same place their parents were born, and even their grandparents. They haven't changed, but their region is changing out from under them, and they don't like it, so they're supporting leadership that advocates putting an end to the excessive immigration into their countries. That's all I'll say about that since I don't want to veer into politics.
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For me, you are actively promoting authoritarianism.

Tolerance, love of our fellow man, compassion, and understanding are foundational to the Christian faith. Christianity is key to my nation and what it represents (I say this as a non-believer). I certainly don't look to hate others. I'm an old man looking for reasons to love others, to have empathy.

Our culture in the UK has developed, evolved, and changed over the centuries. It's how countries grow, learn, and adapt. It's not a matter if it should change, only when it changes. In fact, the culture today is quite different from the one I grew up in, and I'm not talking about immigrants. Things just change.

I would also like to say that calm, rational, debate requires a good understanding of all points of view. Meaning, while you and I feel very differently about this, that does not mean I am for excessive immigration, let alone illegal immigration. Controls must be in place, and successive governments have done a poor job. They are constrained by agreements signed (we've discussed this before on the board) and by the laws in place.

I don't mind if people feel more strongly than I do, of course. But the vitriol and bare faced hatred I read is beyond the pale and does not represent the kind of human being I aspire to be. It must be horrible to live with that darkness, so if anything I feel pity for those who think this way. Something has gone very wrong, imo.
 
RambleTamble said:
I didn't say anything even remotely like that. :rolleyes:

My biggest problem with immigration is that it's causing a rise in authoritarianism in the U.S. and Europe. People don't want their respective cultures to change. They don't want to have to adapt to other cultures when they haven't gone anywhere. Many of them still live where they were born, and the same place their parents were born, and even their grandparents. They haven't changed, but their region is changing out from under them, and they don't like it, so they're supporting leadership that advocates putting an end to the excessive immigration into their countries, and that leadership is coming from authoritarians. That's all I'll say about that since I don't want to veer into politics.
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You mean like British people did all over the world?? I don't think they bothered about whether the cultures of places they invaded had people who had lived there for many generations and if they wanted to adapt to western culture or religion.

Or is it only important when it is your way round??

Even though really no comparison,nobody in our countries now is forcibly taking land etc from indigenous people

. I live and work with people of different religions, backgrounds etc - no problem.
Of course culture is changing over time in many ways, it isnt a static thing. I'm sure people who have lived in Sctotland for generations aren't living as their grandparents did, regardless of the religions of others around them.
 
January said:
You mean like British people did all over the world?? I don't think they bothered about whether the cultures of places they invaded had people who had lived there for many generations and if they wanted to adapt to western culture or religion.

Or is it only important when it is your way round??

Even though really no comparison,nobody in our countries now is forcibly taking land etc from indigenous people

. I live and work with people of different religions, backgrounds etc - no problem.
Of course culture is changing over time in many ways, it isnt a static thing. I'm sure people who have lived in Sctotland for generations aren't living as their grandparents did, regardless of the religions of others around them.
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Bringing up British colonialism doesn’t rebut anything RambleTamble said. Empire and modern immigration aren’t remotely equivalent, and no one here is excusing what happened centuries ago. RambleTamble was describing present-day political reactions, not justifying historic conquest. Those are different issues, different eras, different dynamics.
 
January said:
You mean like British people did all over the world?? I don't think they bothered about whether the cultures of places they invaded had people who had lived there for many generations and if they wanted to adapt to western culture or religion.

Or is it only important when it is your way round??
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Hey, I'm not British.
 
I can see you are from US - so unless you are a full blood native american, your ancestors were people who came t o America and changed the culture of the people who had lived there for umpteen generations
 
Antoli said:
Bringing up British colonialism doesn’t rebut anything RambleTamble said. Empire and modern immigration aren’t remotely equivalent, and no one here is excusing what happened centuries ago. RambleTamble was describing present-day political reactions, not justifying historic conquest. Those are different issues, different eras, different dynamics.
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of course - it is ok when people same as me went to other countries but not when others come to mine.

same as the freedom of speech is important when people are same religion, dress etc as me - but not when they aren't
 
Food for thought ... humans have migrated all over the world from the very beginning of our existence. There is no written history to document what took place between them during those thousands of years ago. Who can say that when prehistoric man arrived at a new location they hadn't displaced another group of humans who had been living there.
 
January said:
of course - it is ok when people same as me went to other countries but not when others come to mine.

same as the freedom of speech is important when people are same religion, dress etc as me - but not when they aren't
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Careful man, you're dealing with people who suggested a Muslim man walking down the street should have expected to be abused. EXPECTED it. That's the view being laid out here - don't be different, be the same. Don't believe in what you want, believe as we do.
 
January said:
of course - it is ok when people same as me went to other countries but not when others come to mine.

same as the freedom of speech is important when people are same religion, dress etc as me - but not when they aren't
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January said:
I can see you are from US - so unless you are a full blood native american, your ancestors were people who came t o America and changed the culture of the people who had lived there for umpteen generations
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My ancestors came here in the early part of the 20th century from Ireland, as did the great mass of immigrants from Italy and Eastern Europe. Native American culture had been more or less eradicated by that point. The new immigrants worked hard to learn the language and adopt the culture of the new land.

I don't feel any blame or shame about the treatment of Native Americans because it happened before we got here. We were busy being mistreated by the English, just as the Russian Jewish immigrants were being chased by the Czar's Cossacks.

So, your generalization about the US is mostly wrong.

I have no problem with Muslim immigrants observing their own religion and customs. I have a major problem a) if they try to impose their religion and customs upon me; and b) if their "customs" lead them to violate the laws of the country to which they have immigrated. This is not as big a problem in the U.S. as it is in the U.K., but it is a major issue there.
 
January said:
of course - it is ok when people same as me went to other countries but not when others come to mine.

same as the freedom of speech is important when people are same religion, dress etc as me - but not when they aren't
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That isn’t what I said at all. You’re reading motives into my comment that simply aren’t there. I was responding to RambleTamble’s point about present-day political reactions to immigration. That has nothing to do with justifying past colonialism or deciding who is "allowed" to move where.

You’re shifting the discussion to assumptions about what I supposedly believe about race, culture, or free speech, none of which I claimed. If you disagree with the distinction I drew, then address that directly. But please don’t recast it as a statement about who I think should or shouldn’t immigrate. That wasn’t said, and it doesn’t help the conversation.
 
Irishdude said:
My ancestors came here in the early part of the 20th century from Ireland, as did the great mass of immigrants from Italy and Eastern Europe. Native American culture had been more or less eradicated by that point. The new immigrants worked hard to learn the language and adopt the culture of the new land.

I don't feel any blame or shame about the treatment of Native Americans because it happened before we got here. We were busy being mistreated by the English, just as the Russian Jewish immigrants were being chased by the Czar's Cossacks.

So, your generalization about the US is mostly wrong.

I have no problem with Muslim immigrants observing their own religion and customs. I have a major problem a) if they try to impose their religion and customs upon me; and b) if their "customs" lead them to violate the laws of the country to which they have immigrated. This is not as big a problem in the U.S. as it is in the U.K., but it is a major issue there.
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Your ancestors were still part of the European influx who took over native culture - the fact they were persecuted in their original lands doesn't change that
Same as mine in Australia.

Over time many immigrants came to places like America and Australia and influenced the culture there - culture is not static , it evolves over time and places today are a mixture of cultures of people who came from different places and backgrounds - including the indiginous peoples whose culture, like you said, had been largely eradicated by European incomers.
We have seen a revival of indiginous cultures in colonised countries i n recent years

Likewise people will then immigrate to the European countries too - it isn't going to be a one way thing

I have no problem with any religious/racial group immigrating as long as they observe the laws of the country they immigrate to and don't try to impose their ways on me.
that goes from non immigrants in a country too - it applies to everyone
But they, like everyone else, have freedom to dress/worship etc as they like - including the Imam Vaughan mentioned who was subject to violence for wearing his religious attire.

Which was met by "well why did he immigrate there i n the first place?" - same sort of reason most people immigrate to another country.
 
Just to be clear, I often hear people repeating the claim that European settlers “stole” the land from American Indians, as if there’s some eternal rule written in the stars that whoever wanders onto an unoccupied continent first gets permanent, exclusive ownership of it for all time. But that’s not how the dynamics of human societies work. Human history, everywhere, in every era, is the story of one tribe, kingdom, or empire displacing another. Native groups in North America did exactly the same to each other long before Europeans arrived. Borders shifted, peoples migrated, wars were fought, and new societies emerged.

And that leads to the fundamental reality people don’t like to admit----------land is not owned, it is held only by those who are strong enough to hold it, and only for as long as they are strong enough to hold it. That has been the rule of every age and every civilization, from Asia to Europe to the Americas. So the idea that Europeans violated some unique, sacred principle simply isn’t accurate. Because the same pattern has played out across the entire sweep of human history.
 
January said:
interesting justification of how Europeans behaved in colonising other peoples :unsure:

whilst at same time complaining about other people moving to your countries today 🤷‍♀️
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I wasn’t justifying anything, I was describing a historical pattern that existed everywhere on Earth long before Europeans arrived in the Americas. So I fail to see how explaining how human societies have actually behaved amounts to defending those behaviors. Also, your second point doesn’t follow. Observing that history is full of migrations, conquests, and displacement does not mean one must support unlimited migration into modern nation-states today. Historical reality and modern policy are two entirely different discussions.

Therefore, you’re responding to an argument I never made. So if you want to challenge my actual point, that’s fine, but please challenge what I said, not what you’ve assumed I meant.
 
January said:
Your ancestors were still part of the European influx who took over native culture - the fact they were persecuted in their original lands doesn't change that
Same as mine in Australia.

Over time many immigrants came to places like America and Australia and influenced the culture there - culture is not static , it evolves over time and places today are a mixture of cultures of people who came from different places and backgrounds - including the indiginous peoples whose culture, like you said, had been largely eradicated by European incomers.
We have seen a revival of indiginous cultures in colonised countries i n recent years

Likewise people will then immigrate to the European countries too - it isn't going to be a one way thing

I have no problem with any religious/racial group immigrating as long as they observe the laws of the country they immigrate to and don't try to impose their ways on me.
that goes from non immigrants in a country too - it applies to everyone
But they, like everyone else, have freedom to dress/worship etc as they like - including the Imam Vaughan mentioned who was subject to violence for wearing his religious attire.

Which was met by "well why did he immigrate there i n the first place?" - same sort of reason most people immigrate to another country.
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1) As I pointed out, my ancestors WERE NOT part of the European influx who took over native culture. They got here AFTER that happened. Tell me why I should be blamed for what some English settlers did 200 to 150 years before we got here. Or for what the Spanish did to the indigenous people living south of here. Sorry for the capital letters but your reading comprehension seems...selective.

2) The problem in the UK (and to a lesser extent in the US) is that members of one religious group -- Muslims -- are trying to impose Sharia law on those parts of the population with no interest in adhering to Sharia law. Similarly, one religious group -- Muslims -- undertakes "honor killings," child marriage and similar acts in violation of the laws of the country in which they live.

I don't recall anyone objecting to anyone's freedom to dress or worship as they like. That is a straw man argument. An imam may have been attacked in the UK, and no one supports that. I will point out that Muslims in the US often attack Jews based on their religious attire or attendance at places of worship.

Happy to supply as many links as you would like to support my statements in item 2).
 
January said:
interesting justification of how Europeans behaved in colonising other peoples :unsure:

whilst at same time complaining about other people moving to your countries today 🤷‍♀️
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It was the leaders of the countries who were responsible for all the damage caused by colonialization -- not the general population. But they're not the ones who are affected by immigration since most of them live in upscale neighborhoods. It's mainly the working class who are affected and at times being replaced.

That said, European colonialization has caused enormous damage around the world, as has U.S. regime change of foreign governments, so we're all responsible for the migration crisis.

What a mess we've made of the world.
 
Irishdude said:
I don't recall anyone objecting to anyone's freedom to dress or worship as they like. That is a straw man argument. An imam may have been attacked in the UK, and no one supports that. I will point out that Muslims in the US often attack Jews based on their religious attire or attendance at places of worship.
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Posters were at least accepting it because "why should he be there at all"

of course no other attacks are ok either - 2 wrongs don't make a right.
 
Irishdude said:
As I pointed out, my ancestors WERE NOT part of the European influx who took over native culture. They got here AFTER that happened. Tell me why I should be blamed for what some English settlers did 200 to 150 years before we got here. Or for what the Spanish did to the indigenous people living south of here. Sorry for the capital letters but your reading comprehension seems...selective.
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I did not say you personally should be blamed or that anyone whose direct ancestors did anything should be blamed.

I did say European influx over time took over native culture (until quite recently when indiginous cultures have been recognised and validated) - that includes people who moved to US in early part of last century
 

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