God, or not? A Christian Discussion

VaughanJB said:
Man did NOT evolve from apes. Our shared ancestry goes back much farther. And when I say farther, it's measured in millions of years. Evolution is not a "murky" discussion. It's fact. That is, it's a theory so solid, and so supported by evidence, that to question it is asinine.
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I completely agree! Humans did not evolve from the apes we see today, like chimpanzees or gorillas, but we do share a common ancestor with them. Genetically, we are closest to chimpanzees and share about 98 to 99% of our DNA with them.
 
Boon54 said:
OK. So, I'm a Christian. I first became one around the turn of the century, when I was in my late 40s. I'm now 71.

I, too, struggle with the many concerns expressed elsewhere in this company as well as on the internet. I think my understanding of the Bible and of Christianity is "correct" (but I've been called blasphemous and representing the Devil, so be warned). If this gets too ugly, maybe the admin can just shut it down.

So, here's my take (my journey). I'll introduce different aspects of my beliefs so that it can be discussed separately, as they are all controversial.

The first part is, Does God exists? Firstly, the question presumes the Christian God. Although it may include the Jews and Muslims, I will exclude them from my discussion mainly because I don't know much about their religions. There is an interesting passage in the beginning of John's gospel which says that (John 1:1 ESV)
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The interesting bit about this is that the Word is in Greek, logos - the root word of biology, psychology, etc., meaning reason or logic. The link here is to Stoicism, where the Greeks didn't so much believed in God but recognised that there's an underlying logic to human nature, just as there's an underlying logic to science (which is fundamentally an investigation into the laws or logic of nature).

The Greeks, esp. Stoics, believed that there's an underlying logic to human nature and that logic is called Natural Law, and it involves choosing Virtue over Vice. If you put aside the idea of God as "old man in the clouds", you may agree that we do have this human nature and that we should choose virtue over vice. If you agree, you already believe in God.
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Well put, Boon54. Those thoughts come close to my own. I do not believe the bible is the word of God. How could it be if it was authored by men and constantly modified by kings? My beliefs come closest to Secular Humanism. In a nutshell, it encompasses all of the christian morals, but forgoes the mythology. Nearly four years ago I had a near-fatal heart attack, had open-heart surgery (CABG x 5) and, due to complications, had an optimizer implant installed in my chest. Prior to my H.A., I was an atheist. After I went through all that, I felt a burgeoning spirituality starting to bubble up. Historically, this not unusual in HA/surgery situations (you know, glad to be alive and all that.)

However, as time went on, I began to revert back to my more logical assertions. I am not a christian. Yet, I do feel a spiritual, call it comfort zone that hangs around me like a thin mist. There is no one on this earth that knows what happens when we die. NO ONE! All answers lie at death's door and there is no way around that. I hope there is a way for me to see my late wife again, but it is a hope, not a faith.

If we were put here for a reason, it was not to flit away this burn-bright-short-life on questions that have no answers. We are here to be good people, to be shepherds to the animals of the earth, to help others and try to do no harm. There are intellectual endeavors that, as humans, we are particularly suited to engage in. There are esoteric pursuits that our brains are well suited to pursue. There is a vast amount of good things we were all put here to do. However,...

I'm about to piss some of you off, but here goes.

We are not here to glorify a deity. We are not here to be fishers of men, we are not here to accept blindly that one man (no matter how enlightened he was) is our savior. A human should not have such an easy out. We must be our own savior and keep ourselves on the straight and narrow. To accept any form of mythology as a basis for life and how it should be lived is not only wrong, it is lazy.

Take responsibility for your own existence and do right on your own merits.

I step down from my soapbox... Please don't think ill of me; it is merely my opinion and you know what they say about opinions...

-David-
 

David later version said:
Well put, Boon54. Those thoughts come close to my own. I do not believe the bible is the word of God. How could it be if it was authored by men and constantly modified by kings? My beliefs come closest to Secular Humanism. In a nutshell, it encompasses all of the christian morals, but forgoes the mythology. Nearly four years ago I had a near-fatal heart attack, had open-heart surgery (CABG x 5) and, due to complications, had an optimizer implant installed in my chest. Prior to my H.A., I was an atheist. After I went through all that, I felt a burgeoning spirituality starting to bubble up. Historically, this not unusual in HA/surgery situations (you know, glad to be alive and all that.)

However, as time went on, I began to revert back to my more logical assertions. I am not a christian. Yet, I do feel a spiritual, call it comfort zone that hangs around me like a thin mist. There is no one on this earth that knows what happens when we die. NO ONE! All answers lie at death's door and there is no way around that. I hope there is a way for me to see my late wife again, but it is a hope, not a faith.

If we were put here for a reason, it was not to flit away this burn-bright-short-life on questions that have no answers. We are here to be good people, to be shepherds to the animals of the earth, to help others and try to do no harm. There are intellectual endeavors that, as humans, we are particularly suited to engage in. There are esoteric pursuits that our brains are well suited to pursue. There is a vast amount of good things we were all put here to do. However,...

I'm about to piss some of you off, but here goes.

We are not here to glorify a deity. We are not here to be fishers of men, we are not here to accept blindly that one man (no matter how enlightened he was) is our savior. A human should not have such an easy out. We must be our own savior and keep ourselves on the straight and narrow. To accept any form of mythology as a basis for life and how it should be lived is not only wrong, it is lazy.

Take responsibility for your own existence and do right on your own merits.

I step down from my soapbox... Please don't think ill of me; it is merely my opinion and you know what they say about opinions...

-David-
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Very well put, and is close to my own views. We must work to solve our own problems without relying on some mythical deity.
 
smiley said:
did I say he created us imperfect I doubt so but if so apologize - no - created perfect but with a potential perhaps to overstretch and take too many chances? - but there is always a road back heh? and we still haven't found another universe with life on it so seem to be the only ones?? And if I recall my own bible studies I know there are so so many examples of how we can change and become more back to perfect if we want and many of us are either doing this now all over the world or attempting - I have hope!
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LOL. Thank you for your thoughts and contributions. Sorry if I misinterpret you but
smiley said:
why did he make us "not perfect" the million dollar question
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"not perfect" = imperfect, no?
🤣😂🤣🤣😂
 
apologizes again ! - I would hazard a guess that the original design was perfect but with a small built in default option to: deviate by own personal will [as eve did?] - which was not unexpected and did happen with interesting consequences including a murder in the fields? and later sex outside of marriage? - ya the defaults started coming fast and thick! then men like wild donkeys of the desert? where did the jealousy thing come from - seven deadly sins I suppose?
 
Last Day
I want to try and wrap up my argument today. If this is useful to anyone and you want to continue, let me know. I'm happy to keep this thread alive. I have been unburdening myself here. This thread has been more for my benefit than for you. I'm very grateful that it has been well received.

There's a wonderful prayer that sums up very well what it means to be a Christian called the Serenity Prayer. I won't reproduce the whole prayer here but the first few lines say this:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

What is really interesting about this prayer is that it embodies the principles of Stoicism, not Christianity. The Greeks believed that the universe is logical, not chaotic nor random. John was reaching out to the Greeks and the rest of the Roman Empire in writing his gospel (https://fiveminutebiblestudy.com/index.php/articles/clues-to-the-audience-of-johns-gospel) making a connection between God and logos, which the Romans and the Greeks believed is the guiding principle that determined the universe.

Science itself grew from this belief. Hence our use of words like biology, psychology, and so on. For much of our history, universities were places of theology as well. Being a scientist was to work towards understanding the mind of God.

When I became a Christian, I discovered that God isn't confined to any religion. He was there from the beginning. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all came a lot later. I also discovered that prayer is not words that we say to God nor a specific ritual that we need to practice. Prayer is the cry from our hearts. Acknowledging this cry is acknowledging God. Giving expression to this cry and acting on it to make things better is God acting through us. Oddly enough, this makes @David later version a Christian in my book (no offence, David).

The word "inspiration" actually means God's breath in us. And it is linked to the other word "spirit" which simply means to breathe. To be alive is to be a spirit.

I thought Christianity is a group of people who believe certain things that the rest of the world do not. Instead, I found in the Bible a way to look at the world that helped me to make sense of my life. What is truly gratifying about it is that I found no condemnation of other people, regardless of their beliefs. On the contrary, Jesus reached out to all, not only the Gentiles but the discards - prostitutes, lepers, murderers, and so on. God loves everyone, even those we find it hard to forgive, let alone love.

When I shared these thoughts with some Christian groups, I was roundly cursed. But I was led to a church that thought the same as I did. I needed to say these things, and I'm thankful for the audience I've received here. What is most amazing is that most people behave this way, even though they may believe differently. We can agree to disagree and we do this more often than we quarrel. We respond to suffering as human beings, regardless of our beliefs.

Moving forward, I'm happy to continue if you want to. It seems a good platform for us to share our beliefs without getting in each other's way. I'm also happy to share my understanding of the Bible. It's a very strange and wonderful document. And I don't interpret it the way many Christians seem to. But if you want to talk about the Bible, I'll start another thread. I want to keep this thread, if it continues, around a general discussion about God and religion.

In closing, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Especially those who have quietly given me a hug, or a thumbs up, and encouraged me on. This has been very helpful to me. It has cleared up some lingering doubts and brought me closer to God. Thank you all.
 
On a vacation trip with my ex husband yeeeeeeers ago, I saw this: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" on a wooden plate hung on a wall in a diner. I loved the prayer--felt close to it so bought it. Have had it ever since.
 
David777 said:
As someone that also tends to post online more verbosely because I can, there are plenty of people in this era that cannot read more than a sentence or three without escaping elsewhere. And in like matter, such reflects in their own terse posts that are rarely more than one liners usually with emotional overtones.
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Well... personally, I try to consider my audience when writing posts and in doing so assume that others have lives, things to do, other posts to read and might not therefore be interested in reading me waxing on about whatever happens to be crossing my mind in the moment.

I wouldn't assume that brevity is an indication of inability.
 
Elsie said:
On a vacation trip with my ex husband yeeeeeeers ago, I saw this: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" on a wooden plate hung on a wall in a diner. I loved the prayer--felt close to it so bought it. Have had it ever since.
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Yes, it's beautiful, isn't it? The rest of the prayer is just as apt. I read it often. It grounds us and keeps our eyes on what they should. You have been one of my regular readers and quietly supportive of what I've written. Thank you.
 
Medusa said:
Well... personally, I try to consider my audience when writing posts and in doing so assume that others have lives, things to do, other posts to read and might not therefore be interested in reading me waxing on about whatever happens to be crossing my mind in the moment.

I wouldn't assume that brevity is an indication of inability.
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I also would not assume that you being you is a turn-off for others. To genuinely know someone on a forum, one hopes that that someone is transparently true in their opinions and ruminations. Unless you are specifically wanting to be mean, (and in my opinion) you should not consider the audience. To formulate an entry based on what you think others would enjoy or be interested in is to water down your own personality. I think the members always wants to hear the real you.

Others can chime in and disagree, but for myself, I am fine with reading anything by another member, no matter the length or brevity.

One man's trash is...

-David-
 
David later version said:
I also would not assume that you being you is a turn-off for others. To genuinely know someone on a forum, one hopes that that someone is transparently true in their opinions and ruminations. Unless you are specifically wanting to be mean, (and in my opinion) you should not consider the audience. To formulate an entry based on what you think others would enjoy or be interested in is to water down your own personality. I think the members always wants to hear the real you.

Others can chime in and disagree, but for myself, I am fine with reading anything by another member, no matter the length or brevity.

One man's trash is...

-David-
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David later version said:
I also would not assume that you being you is a turn-off for others. To genuinely know someone on a forum, one hopes that that someone is transparently true in their opinions and ruminations. Unless you are specifically wanting to be mean, (and in my opinion) you should not consider the audience. To formulate an entry based on what you think others would enjoy or be interested in is to water down your own personality. I think the members always wants to hear the real you.

Others can chime in and disagree, but for myself, I am fine with reading anything by another member, no matter the length or brevity.

One man's trash is...

-David-
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Totally respect your opinion here, however, I absolutely feel that there is merit is considering one's audience before beginning to write and that doing so does not automatically equate to tempering personality or censoring oneself, but simply considering the reader when addressing them.

I'm responding in my post #184, above, to a post wherein it was implied that people who respond to or write posts without length lack the ability to do so. I don't agree with that. That is my main point.
 
well AI or other ? we all approach our first posts as new members in differing ways and what does it matter ; if rules are not ignored? we are I assume entitled to our own styles? those who like "father figures" go for them willingly others not? and you have a trio choice : God the Father ; God the Son and God the Holy Ghost" now get ya molars around that one and chew on it a bit - simple to say - hard to reconcile or understand? and it continues; In the name of all three too!! - wanna cast them to one side and go for freestyle salvation ? - be my guest - it's your salvation ya dealing with not mine?

Show me other religious scripts : Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism

We are not just fleabags in the earth scrawling about for an existence we have greater meaning - sometimes it's about which one suits you best and may still after all is said and done provide you with ultimate salvation of something?
 
Elsie said:
On a vacation trip with my ex husband yeeeeeeers ago, I saw this: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" on a wooden plate hung on a wall in a diner. I loved the prayer--felt close to it so bought it. Have had it ever since.
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It’s the “Serenity Prayer”

The Serenity Prayer​

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change
the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time.
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as he did, the sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it.
Trusting that he will make all things right
if I surrender to His will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
and supremely happy with Him forever.
—Reinhold Niebuhr, 1892-1971
 
I think we can learn to ACCEPT everything bad that happens to us without any "god." Acceptance keeps us happy no matter what happens to us including pain, paralysis and being notified that our life may be coming to an end very soon. As we age, bad things will happen to us and we will die. There is no point in getting depressed by that certainty.
 
Boon54 said:
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@Boon54, I want to clear up, just quickly, that my intent in post #184 was not to imply that all long posts are inconsiderate or lacking thought for the audience. Some topics require them. Some people enjoy them, regardless of topic.

I would be sad to think a post I wrote could have, even inadvertently, led to you or anyone else feeling disparaged.
 
Elsie said:
On a vacation trip with my ex husband yeeeeeeers ago, I saw this: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" on a wooden plate hung on a wall in a diner. I loved the prayer--felt close to it so bought it. Have had it ever since.
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I actually like that prayer too, but I don't ask God, I just find it in myself. I have only considered buying one wall hanging of that nature. I came very close to buying it. It was in a cute little store in an upscale Chicago suburb that my sister wanted me to see. There must have been a table with at least 50, which gave me the idea they were selling like hot cakes. One of the cleverest words of wisdom ever.

INNER PEACE
THROUGH IMPULSE BUYING​
 

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