Guns- Putting it in perspective in my real world.

Underock1

Underock1

Senior Member
Location
Suburban NJ
Not changing my anti-gun view a bit. What's going on here is a horror. If I was all powerful, I would wave my wand and make them all disappear.
Just trying to give the non-US folk a view from my own experience. I, personally, in almost 83 years in the US, have never heard a shot fired in anger. Although I'm sure I must have met people who have had people in their lives murdered, no one I have ever known personally, nor any of my relatives has ever mentioned experiencing a gun incident of any kind.
My brother was into hunting responsibly for a few years, but I don't think he ever shot anything. I fired his rifles and pistols on a target range once with the whole family. That's about it.
I just want to clarify that bullets aren't flying everywhere in the US. It depends on where you live. I spent the first 35 years of my life in a working class neighborhood in the Bronx, and the rest in a NW NJ suburb. There are of course murders every day in the ghettos across the country. The real gun culture is in the rural and sub-rural areas, where giving your kids a gun and teaching them to hunt is a normal rite of passage.
 

The urban areas can be pretty sad too. There was a civil service group in Newark that made an announcement. They wanted everyone to support " Black Lives Matter" and just for one day no violence, no death. The first victim was at 9 am and the second at noon. Twenty four hours and they just couldn't do it...give them credit for trying.

I know about rural. When we lived in PA we were friendly with this preteen who helped in the family store. One day he was looking a bit tired. He said he was 14 and finally old enough to go out hunting deer with his Dad's friends. Putting a rifle in a fourteen year olds hands, I don't understand hunting anyways but taking a child is even worse.
 
I have never personally heard a shot fired in anger either Underock, and I am pro-gun. We have guns in the house, and when we go camping in the wilderness, we take with us a pistol and a rifle. We'll do some target practice, and have some protection if we need it against an aggressive animal or human. Neither of us conceal carry.

Neither of us are hunters, but we have a friend who is. These shootings make headlines that stay in place for weeks on end, then every year the news media reviews the shooting over and over. I really think this is making people even more fearful and paranoid. I go out wherever I want to and am not afraid.

Although I have a loaded gun at the ready in my home, in all my years I've never had to use it for self defense, but I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. My sister's husband was a hunter, and had various guns in their home, they also had two children who were taught to respect them, never an incident at all.

You're right about the real gun culture, for many years those in rural areas had guns for various reasons, their kids were taught how to use them, clean them safely and respect them. My parents never had a gun in the house when I was growing up, we lived in the city.

I believe the inner cities with the strictest gun laws have the most gun crime, because of the gangs and the criminals who blow each other away on a daily basis....don't hear much about them on the national news, not sensational enough.

Most of these mass shootings are done by people who are mentally ill. Many times they state their intentions on social media, but nobody learns to pay attention before the crime is committed. The majority of them are on prescription drugs for anxiety, depression, etc., and those pharmaceuticals have side effects of wanting to commit homicide or suicide, another thing nobody pays attention to. Instead they start young school kids on these mind altering medications for no valid reason at all.

Many shootings take place in gun-free zones, but the latest college shooting wasn't technically gun-free. But the security guard had nothing but a can of mace. If these guards had weapons, many lives could be saved in each instance, but nobody pays attention. What's going on here is a horror, but many components are ignored, just the gun itself is condemned, not the crazy hateful suicidal person using it.
 

Murderous Mentality

It seems to be generally believed by the anti-gun following that an individual having murderous intent will NOT go ahead and commit the crime, if he/she is not in possession of a gun. Just forgets all about it, cools off, and life/lives are spared.

Does real life work that way? imp
 
imp said:
It seems to be generally believed by the anti-gun following that an individual having murderous intent will NOT go ahead and commit the crime, if he/she is not in possession of a gun. Just forgets all about it, cools off, and life/lives are spared.

Does real life work that way? imp
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Yes, imp, sometimes it does work that way.
Not every homicide is premeditated and people do cool off.
But you are right in that people acting out of rage and hatred can and do use other weapons.

However, what is clear is that it is very hard to single handedly commit a massacre without a gun, especially one capable of rapid fire without reloading.
 
Warrigal said:
Yes, imp, sometimes it does work that way.
Not every homicide is premeditated and people do cool off.
But you are right in that people acting out of rage and hatred can and do use other weapons.

However, what is clear is that it is very hard to single handedly commit a massacre without a gun, especially one capable of rapid fire without reloading.
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My point is that, unless clear and factual data be presented showing homicides committed, let's say, using other than a firearm as a lethal device, the mere presence of firearms does not cause murder. imp
 
Thank you for your post, SeaBreeze, You contributed a lot towards the intent of my OP. I hope that together we have given a clearer picture of the reality of things for those looking at things from the outside.
I think its interesting that we are both pretty much describing the same picture from opposite positions with regard to the question.
 
imp, Do you really think there would be 9 dead and 9 wounded if the Oregon killer used a knife? He could have been fought off with three students swinging book bags! Is that enough substance?
 
I think we should remember that all dangerous weapons need to be confiscated from dangerous people, not just guns,
and it should be made very hard for them to be replaced.

Guns, axe, knife seized by ACT Policing from home in Red Hill in Canberra's south

Posted Sun 4 Oct 2015


ACT Policing seized a number of weapons following a search warrant in Red Hill on Friday.



Police seized two replica double barrel shotguns, two replica handguns and a large prohibited dagger. (Supplied: ACT Policing )


Police have seized weapons, including guns and an axe, and a quantity of drugs during a search of a residence in Red Hill in Canberra's south.
A police spokesperson said they found two replica double barrel shotguns, two replica handguns and a large prohibited dagger during the search of the property on Friday evening.


A quantity of suspected methylamphetamine, cannabis and items linked to the sale of illicit drugs were also seized.
Investigations are continuing.
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My question, what are replica shotguns and are they capable of being fired?
 
imp said:
It seems to be generally believed by the anti-gun following that an individual having murderous intent will NOT go ahead and commit the crime, if he/she is not in possession of a gun. Just forgets all about it, cools off, and life/lives are spared.

Does real life work that way? imp
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't. They just go home and make bombs, like those kids did at Columbine. BTW, it still boggles my mind that those boys were making bombs in their garages, and the parents had no idea, or so they said. If you are paying any attention at all, how can you not know your kids are making bombs in your garage?? And if you're not paying enough attention to know that, why in blazes not?
 
I just checked it out Warri. Yes they are shootable. I presume there may be some that are not, but apparently its the re-enactor kind of thing. People interested in the old West, etc.
 
Imp, my words are not vacuous. I just don't believe that any argument I present will make the slightest bit of difference. In future, could we avoid personal remarks? After all we are friends.
 
SeaBreeze said:
I have never personally heard a shot fired in anger either Underock, and I am pro-gun. We have guns in the house, and when we go camping in the wilderness, we take with us a pistol and a rifle. We'll do some target practice, and have some protection if we need it against an aggressive animal or human. Neither of us conceal carry.

Neither of us are hunters, but we have a friend who is. These shootings make headlines that stay in place for weeks on end, then every year the news media reviews the shooting over and over. I really think this is making people even more fearful and paranoid. I go out wherever I want to and am not afraid.

Although I have a loaded gun at the ready in my home, in all my years I've never had to use it for self defense, but I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. My sister's husband was a hunter, and had various guns in their home, they also had two children who were taught to respect them, never an incident at all.

You're right about the real gun culture, for many years those in rural areas had guns for various reasons, their kids were taught how to use them, clean them safely and respect them. My parents never had a gun in the house when I was growing up, we lived in the city.

I believe the inner cities with the strictest gun laws have the most gun crime, because of the gangs and the criminals who blow each other away on a daily basis....don't hear much about them on the national news, not sensational enough.

Most of these mass shootings are done by people who are mentally ill. Many times they state their intentions on social media, but nobody learns to pay attention before the crime is committed. The majority of them are on prescription drugs for anxiety, depression, etc., and those pharmaceuticals have side effects of wanting to commit homicide or suicide, another thing nobody pays attention to. Instead they start young school kids on these mind altering medications for no valid reason at all.

Many shootings take place in gun-free zones, but the latest college shooting wasn't technically gun-free. But the security guard had nothing but a can of mace. If these guards had weapons, many lives could be saved in each instance, but nobody pays attention. What's going on here is a horror, but many components are ignored, just the gun itself is condemned, not the crazy hateful suicidal person using it.
Click to expand...


I absolutely agree with all you said here. I agree that though rural areas may have more of a "gun culture" in the sense of hunting and protection, the real problem is the cities where guns are used to "solve" the slightest of disagreements. I grew up with guns and was taught at a very young age that they were not toys, but weapons that could kill, and that dead is forever. I was also taught the proper use and handling of weapons and that mistakes or stupidity or showing off were inexcusable when it came to weapons.

I was appalled when I worked as a paralegal in criminal appeals that most perpetrators saw nothing wrong in what they did. "He looked at my girlfriend" was a common thing, and they really and truly didn't see a problem with shooting someone in response to that. One guy killed three people in a car and crippled a third because they had driven onto his property and he said to me "What's the problem with that? They came on my property." It didn't matter at all to him that he shot at them when they were actually leaving his property, having evidently come onto it in error because they were lost.

THAT's the biggest problem, not the gun itself, but that taking a life is seen as OK in response to a slight or an insult, or getting one's feelings hurt, or because you are pissed off at the world in general. We don't seem to be teaching the value of life itself, or the idea that you're not always going to like what other people do, but that that's no excuse for taking a life, whether it be with a gun or a machete or a bomb, and that taking lives does not make you a big shot.

I keep a loaded weapon in my home, also, and always will.

I will now get off my soapbox.
 
THAT's the biggest problem, not the gun itself, but that taking a life is seen as OK in response to a slight or an insult, or getting one's feelings hurt, or because you are pissed off at the world in general. We don't seem to be teaching the value of life itself, or the idea that you're not always going to like what other people do, but that that's no excuse for taking a life, whether it be with a gun or a machete or a bomb, and that taking lives does not make you a big shot.
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Are you saying that the root cause is that "life is cheap" today? Is that the real problem?
 
Guns have been around for a few hundred years now, while these outrageous shootings of children and teachers in schools is much more recent - 20 years or so. This problem is not with the weapon itself, which is an inanimate thing, but lies in the warped mind of the shooter as I see it. How to solve this problem to everyone's protection and satisfaction is beyond me at the moment.
 
chic said:
Guns have been around for a few hundred years now, while these outrageous shootings of children and teachers in schools is much more recent - 20 years or so. This problem is not with the weapon itself, which is an inanimate thing, but lies in the warped mind of the shooter as I see it. How to solve this problem to everyone's protection and satisfaction is beyond me at the moment.
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You are not alone.
 
I am anti-gun but will not debate it. It's pointless as no one wins. As far as I know, none of my family (in the US) owns a gun, although it's possible the sole right winger in the family might. Never think about guns here in Scotland. Not an issue.

I did have a gun stuck in my face in the US back in the 80's. Drug addict or alcoholic obviously as the guy had very yellow eyes. On our recent trip there were a couple of times when I was tempted to give an idiotic driver the finger when he made a really stupid move. But nobody with any sense does that any more in the US due to possible road rage from a driver with a gun.
 
I have experienced gun horror. When my son was 10 years old he was shot in the face by another 10 year old who go ahold of his mother's loaded gun. SO now you know someone who has been affected Underock..

Before anyone starts with the... it was the mother's fault not the gun... or the two littly boys faults... i warn you... DO NOT GO THERE with me.. K?
 
SeaBreeze said:
I have never personally heard a shot fired in anger .......

I believe the inner cities with the strictest gun laws have the most gun crime, because of the gangs and the criminals who blow each other away on a daily basis....don't hear much about them on the national news, not sensational enough.

Most of these mass shootings are done by people who are mentally ill.........
Click to expand...


What kind of gun laws do you have? If your gun laws are so strict, why are mentally ill people getting them?

In Canada, the RCMP call my references and question them in depth as to the kind of person I am and my state of mind if I apply for a gun license. I have to go through a gun safety course over the course of a couple weekends before I can even apply for a license and I'm required to maintain a membership in a local gun club throughout my ownership of it. And as far as I know, we don't have gun shows that 'unknowns' can easily go in and buy a gun the same day.
 
Debby said:
What kind of gun laws do you have? If your gun laws are so strict, why are mentally ill people getting them?

In Canada, the RCMP call my references and question them in depth as to the kind of person I am and my state of mind if I apply for a gun license. I have to go through a gun safety course over the course of a couple weekends before I can even apply for a license and I'm required to maintain a membership in a local gun club throughout my ownership of it. And as far as I know, we don't have gun shows that 'unknowns' can easily go in and buy a gun the same day.
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I believe that's what is being argued for. Yes.. there are background checks...but NOT at gun shows and online purchases.. That is a loophole that needs to be closed and is being fought against....

ALSO.... I believe that anyone who gives their gun to someone who commits a crime with it..or allows someone access to their gun and they commit a crime should be prosecuted. That means having guns in your house that your crazy nephew or son can get his hands on will cost you money or jail time.
 
Again I repeat that for some of these mental cases our courts will not allow this knowledge out to the gun registration folks. It is against the law to do so. That needs to be changed in some way so the knowledge can be used. I think that issue was posted recently when saying the health information request was OK by they buyer, this being the buyers permission being mandatory, thus going around the legal restriction of medical research about a person being illegal.

Also agree with QuickSilver that these personal sales should also be required to have gun registration first.
 
QuickSilver said:
I believe that's what is being argued for. Yes.. there are background checks...but NOT at gun shows and online purchases.. That is a loophole that needs to be closed and is being fought against....

ALSO.... I believe that anyone who gives their gun to someone who commits a crime with it..or allows someone access to their gun and they commit a crime should be prosecuted. That means having guns in your house that your crazy nephew or son can get his hands on will cost you money or jail time.
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That's what I think too when I hear about the mass killings in the USA. I also think that anyone who argues against the sorts of gun laws that Canada has is as guilty as those killers because their support would go a long way towards saving lives, but apparently they don't care enough about the lives of people. Their opposition only shows them to be thoughtless and lacking in empathy quite frankly.

I don't like guns, I think they are an accident waiting to happen but I can accept that some people want them. But surround them with regulations that make it a real supreme effort to own them! Gun owners should have to jump through hoops because we're not talking about something to make peeling potatoes easier, these are weapons designed in truth, for one thing only and that is to take a life.

As to the mentally ill Bob, doctors might not be able to say anything about their illnesses, but references might and they aren't given an opportunity to possibly be the brake in the system because there is no checking. In Canada, our police departments look at the statements of references prior to deciding.
 

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