"I hate you", "You are horrible"! (yes another thread on family law)

grahamg

Senior Member
The words "I hate you", "You are horrible", came from the mouth of my young daughter quite often, (though you've all heard about that I know), however, staying in London in twenty years ago, I learnt in an article in Good Housekeeping magazine, I think it was, that other children across the world use those self same words to their father, (/nonresident patent).

It gets really boring and heavy when you start scratching the surface of "parental alienation syndrome", (controversial issue or disease?), and alternatively "parental alienation", (not so controversial)!

However, in a very mild way, and hopefully without too many folk pitching in with "you should have done this or that", I'd like to shed some light on what its like to have those words said to you repeatedly, and whatever insights I might have gleaned.

Here is the minimum background I can give you. First my ex told a court welfare officer my four year old daughter hated me, and how terrible it was she had to force her to have contact with me. The court welfare officer, Mrs Hobson, took a dislike to my ex, didn't swallow any of it, and when we returned to face the judge officiating over the divorce, he threatened my ex she would have to face him if she failed to cooperate.

I'm trying to be quick here, so fast forward eight years, numerous occasions when my daughter stated the words in the thread title, but as maybe only a child could do, followed them with the words, " Keep coming daddy"! However, after disagreements about whether my daughter could come on short holidays, (we'd managed to organise about six two three, or four day stays during those years, but when I asked once more the wheels fell off, and my daughter said, "Don't come again daddy", and a year or so of court expense later I lost their support, as " the child's views are given more weight, and it was clear the contact I had with my child was not enjoyable for her,(/substandard), the decided.

Now here is the insight I'd like to impart, what is it like for a child to say they hate their parent, (whether they do at the moment they say it or not, or for whatever reason, it happens often enough in intact families after all)?

I'd guess my daughter understood the strength of my feelings for her, so stating she hated me carried no jeopardy for her, and contrariwise, failing to say how poor contact was might make her mother suspect she wasn't 100% loyal to her. My daughter used to emerge from behind her mothers front door, and disappear behind it when I took her home, so hard was it for my ex to have to clap eyes on me, (and this went on for years, though in fairness my daughter was almost always there at the arranged time/date, once every three weeks for the majority of the time, and for the seven hours together you were permitted.

Finally I should state my ex !over our daughter, and was a very attentive parent, and the best one for sure to have custody.
 

Judycat

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
My oldest son and I didn't have the greatest of relationships as he was growing. He now calls his mother-in-law Mom. I was taken aback when I first heard it, but I'd rather not wade into those waters. Maybe she insists he call her that. She's in his life more than I am now. I guess I'm of the opinion that life is better if everything isn't either/or. If I need help he comes and if he invites me over I go.
 
What I learned is that the I hate you's are code for "You led me to believe you were Superman yet you're not fixing my problems!"

The reasoning behind courts allowing kids of a certain age to chose whether or not they want visitation with a parent is the knowledge that some kids who are victims of abuse by a parent - abuse that can't or hasn't been proven - will keep quiet about it out of fear.
 

Tish

Well-known Member
My Husband may he rest in peace, always used to answer our daughter with "Is that right? Well, pumpkin I still love you."
That usually resulted in her storming off to her room and slamming the door that hard the windows rattled.
I swear to God after raising 3 teenagers I now understand why some animals eat their young.
Thankfully our sons never went through the "That's unfair, I hate you stage."
 

Pepper

Well-known Member
Location
NYC
My mother's answer to "that's not fair", "you're mean" and "I hate you" was always "I'm your mother, this isn't an elected position and I'm not running for Miss Popularity."
I always knew my son, as a little boy, would say something akin to "drop dead"...............as a little brat I said that to my mother only a couple of times but it's hard to forget. Anyway, before I had kids, I plotted my own response. So 15 years after, and my son says this I..............drop dead. Perfection, as I had decided that long before. He, he was around 8? Can't remember precisely. He got so scared I had my jollies for a shorter while than I would want, "wake" up, confess my sin.

Highly recommended. He never said anything like that ever again.
 
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grahamg

Senior Member
What I learned is that the I hate you's are code for "You led me to believe you were Superman yet you're not fixing my problems!"

The reasoning behind courts allowing kids of a certain age to chose whether or not they want visitation with a parent is the knowledge that some kids who are victims of abuse by a parent - abuse that can't or hasn't been proven - will keep quiet about it out of fear.
I think abuse cases are different, and can be identified as being different not least because those children stating they hate you as mine did, with no equivocation at all completely contrast with cases of genuine abuse, where abused children always make statements shoeing equivocation.

I'm very lucky there were never any accusation of any abuse from my very hostile ex, (or the "new daddy"), so I hope that helps convince you there may be completely different reasons why courts take more notice over "visitation", (rum word that visitation, my fellow fathers rights protestor I mentioned on another thread who insisted fathers should be arguing to be allowed to " parent" their child, wouldn't have liked it I'm sure!).
 
I think abuse cases are different, and can be identified as being different not least because those children stating they hate you as mine did, with no equivocation at all completely contrast with cases of genuine abuse, where abused children always make statements shoeing equivocation.

, so I hope that helps convince you there may be completely different reasons why courts take more notice over "visitation",
Yes, abuse cases are different, however the US laws created to protect the abused child applies to all children who find themselves in family. court.
 

grahamg

Senior Member
Yes, abuse cases are different, however the US laws created to protect the abused child applies to all children who find themselves in family. court.
It could hardly do otherwise I agree, but the point I hoped to make concerned assumptions being made by the courts where there are no concerns at all about any element of child abuse, hence my view you should perhaps look for other justifications as to why children say the things they do, these exact same things said across the western world, without any equivocation, is quite startling in itself I feel.
 
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Pepper

Well-known Member
Location
NYC
Your beautiful little girl reminds me of Bindi Irwin. Graham, your pain seems so intense. I'm very sorry you lost so many great times with this fabulous child.
 

grahamg

Senior Member
Your beautiful little girl reminds me of Bindi Irwin. Graham, your pain seems so intense. I'm very sorry you lost so many great times with this fabulous child.
I keep saying it, but forget any pain I might have felt, and think about the thousands, maybe millions who did not have the luck and advantages I had, meaning that if I could be condemned ultimately by court officials, (to an extent only I was condemned, as they didn't believe me, and felt they knew more than I what made my child say what she did).
In my view making you justify your role in your child's life is in a sense, the same as denying you a relationship with your own child, because neither you nor they needs to feel someone else, or outside the family is telling you what to do or say.
I judged what was the best for my child, as far as I could in the limited contact I had with her, and she perhaps thrived all the better because of it, why should I regret that outcome, (whether I'm in the picture or not)? So please do think of the others, those without such an open, easy to enjoy child, my parents cherishing her so much too, (anyone might wish to take her home, or you would, according to our forum friend above!). :)
 

grahamg

Senior Member
Yes, abuse cases are different, however the US laws created to protect the abused child applies to all children who find themselves in family. court.
Apologies to everyone I've confused, my post above showing the photos was in connection to questions you'd raised in the "Fertility rates declining" thread, (I'll come back with those questions so it makes sense later, if that's okay?). :)
 

Elsie

Member
I very often for hours took care of my grandson each day while his parents worked. I think he was around 8 when I verbally disciplined him and he responded, looking sadly frustrated, "I hate you." And I said, "It's okay, you have a right to feel any way you feel, even if you say you hate me." He fell silent then and not long after everything was back to fine between us. I believe it would have been a mistake to chastise him for speaking his mind, even though it hurt me.
 

grahamg

Senior Member
I very often for hours took care of my grandson each day while his parents worked. I think he was around 8 when I verbally disciplined him and he responded, looking sadly frustrated, "I hate you." And I said, "It's okay, you have a right to feel any way you feel, even if you say you hate me." He fell silent then and not long after everything was back to fine between us. I believe it would have been a mistake to chastise him for speaking his mind, even though it hurt me.
The parents of a good friend of mine, (who is my boss too), used to describe how they responded to their grandchildren by emphasising how they loved them, but not always whatever it was they were doing, (so similar to the story you've related).
I remember my very innocent child sometimes having difficulty sharing things with her cousins, one of my sisters two children, who were slightly younger than my daughter. When she was sitting on my knee, I attempted to lift my neice up onto the other knee to read them both a children's book, and my daughter attempted to spread herself to prevent my doing this, so being a bit selfish and silly, or asserting she was "top dog", as the oldest! :)
 

grahamg

Senior Member
Here we go with the Murrmurr quote from the other thread, plus a baby photo from the next generation, (my first grandson therefore):

Quote:
"...., let's say we tested this theory - put a swaddled baby in the arms of a group of women, do the same with group 2, an equal number of men. I think a majority of the women would take the baby home. A majority of the men, on the other hand, would probably look around for its mother."

What do you think, anyone want to take him home with them?

SV200933.JPG
 
I would, if he needed taking.

I admit, Graham, I've gotten confused. Your posts are not easy (for me) to follow.

To the actual topic, and based on my personal experience, I commented : What I learned is that the I hate you's are code for "You led me to believe you were Superman yet you're not fixing my problems!" and I'm going to leave it at that.
 

grahamg

Senior Member
I would, if he needed taking.
I admit, Graham, I've gotten confused. Your posts are not easy (for me) to follow.
To the actual topic, and based on my personal experience, I commented : What I learned is that the I hate you's are code for "You led me to believe you were Superman yet you're not fixing my problems!" and I'm going to leave it at that.
Well, your an exception to your own rule, (or acting in the opposite way to most men?)?
I can tell you the head of the "Child services department in Wales, (known as CAFCASS here), told an assembled group of excluded" father's he could "envision being excluded from his own children if he were abusing them"!
His words did not impress many of my fellow campaigners, because if it isn't too obvious thing to say, most folks cannot envisage abusing their own children, and do their absolute best to prevent others abusing them, (see other threads on this forum regarding abuse scandals where this fell down for a variety of reasons).
I know that man was trained to suspect everyone, "including himself bizarrely", but no one can really live their lives like that, when our children start to fear anyone hugging them, might be abusing them even us loving them to bits! :)
 
Well, your an exception to your own rule, (or acting in the opposite way to most men?)?
I can tell you the head of the "Child services department in Wales, (known as CAFCASS here), told an assembled group of excluded" father's he could "envision being excluded from his own children if he were abusing them"!
His words did not impress many of my fellow campaigners, because if it isn't too obvious thing to say, most folks cannot envisage abusing their own children, and do their absolute best to prevent others abusing them, (see other threads on this forum regarding abuse scandals where this fell down for a variety of reasons).
I know that man was trained to suspect everyone, "including himself bizarrely", but no one can really live their lives like that, when our children start to fear anyone hugging them, might be abusing them even us loving them to bits! :)
If so, I was likely influenced by my childhood experiences and the 20-some years that I was a single father.

I wouldn't want to be around my children if I abused them. They'd be better off somewhere else.

Again, I'm not at all sure what the point of the thread is at this point. Could be me, but it seems to have meandered. Also, I haven't read all the comments. But I think this addresses it...

When your own kids say they hate you it's usually during their teen years, which are difficult for all concerned, but it does happen when they're younger, particularly when they have more to deal with than a child should, i.e., a divorce. At the core of such proclamations, I believe, is fear and insecurity. They are overwhelmed, they count on grown-ups to fix things, and are gravely disappointed and disillusioned to discover that parents can't fix everything, and then horrified at the realization that they'll just have to find ways to cope when all they want to do is be a kid.

That's my opinion on the topic. Whatever else I contributed was just additional meandering.
 

grahamg

Senior Member
If so, I was likely influenced by my childhood experiences and the 20-some years that I was a single father.
I wouldn't want to be around my children if I abused them. They'd be better off somewhere else.
Again, I'm not at all sure what the point of the thread is at this point. Could be me, but it seems to have meandered. Also, I haven't read all the comments. But I think this addresses it...
When your own kids say they hate you it's usually during their teen years, which are difficult for all concerned, but it does happen when they're younger, particularly when they have more to deal with than a child should, i.e., a divorce. At the core of such proclamations, I believe, is fear and insecurity. They are overwhelmed, they count on grown-ups to fix things, and are gravely disappointed and disillusioned to discover that parents can't fix everything, and then horrified at the realization that they'll just have to find ways to cope when all they want to do is be a kid.

That's my opinion on the topic. Whatever else I contributed was just additional meandering.
You couldn't in all honesty imagine abusing your own child though could you, unless you were unhinged, which you clearly are not(?)
 


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