Is this a war crime?

Warrigal

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Medicins Sans Frontiers (doctors without borders) is the international charity that I support with a regular monthly donation. I admire what they do and the way that they do not allow any government or group to dictate to them about who they will help or treat. They are doctors, and they treat those who need their help and rather than compromise their ideals, they will pull out of a region if they are under pressure to deny treatment to particular classes or tribes.

Like Switzerland and the Red Cross, they are politically neutral.

It is particularly shocking to me that in Kunduz, Afghanistan, the hospital that they were operating was bombed by coalition (? American, ? Afghan) forces, destroying the hospital and killing at least 22 people, including 3 children, who were burned in their beds. Even more people were badly injured. The location of the hospital, including its GPS co-ordinates was known to the coalition forces and once the attack began, authorities were contacted to alert them to the fact that a hospital was being hit but the attack continued for over 30 minutes, destroying the hospital completely. MSF has now left the area because they can no longer serve the people there.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/d...n-were-firing-afghan-hospital-hit-air-n438251
 

Depends on intent and who ordered regardless of existing information about that hospital. This was supposed to be an Afghanee operation with US advisers. The Afghanees still insist they were being fired on from the building. What the US advisers did or did not do is the question. Also includes training or lack there of on giving civilians priority even though the enemy close by.
 

Well let's hope there is a truly independent investigation and that they get to the bottom of this and that the families of the dead are compensated for their loss. Won't bring those people back or erase the horror of the memory of how they died but they deserve something other than bad memories.
 
I am sure some money will be doled out as that is how we usually handle these mistakes...
 
How can it be a war crime? A general has just said that Afghan forces called for an air strike and we responded. Just the "fog" of war as they say...
 
Sorry but that's what happened. Our "highly" trained and expensive Afghan allies blew it. We must have thought that they were ready to make this kind of call and, obviously, they were not...
 
They are in a war zone AND there was the question of ISIS wound members being treated and/or hiding nearby, if that's true then it is a target.
 
Terror and death rained down on a hospital in the middle of the night, and it was no accident. Patients in ICU were burning in their beds.
The staff that were killed were all Afghans. Way to win the hearts and minds of the local people. No wonder some prefer life under the Taliban.

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani said the Nato force in his country had apologised for the bombing of the hospital.
The Nato alliance has admitted its forces may have hit the hospital. NATO? Read US air strikes.

At least 37 people were seriously injured, 19 of them MSF staff. The testimony of the surviving MSF staff should get a hearing in an international court.

MSF says that all parties to the conflict, including Kabul and Washington, had been told the precise GPS co-ordinates of the hospital in Kunduz on many occasions, including on 29 September. After staff at the hospital became aware of the aerial bombardment in the early hours of Saturday morning, US and Afghan military officials were again informed, MSF said. These communications should be able to be verified. There should be records of them somewhere. If they go missing it will be very suspicious.

Reuters news agency quotes an MSF official as saying that frantic staff phoned military officials at Nato in Kabul and Washington as bombs landed on the hospital for nearly an hour. The official said the first bomb had landed at 02:10, and MSF staff called Nato in Kabul at 02:19 and military officials in Washington a few minutes later, but the bombing continued until 03:13. Again, this claim should be verifiable.
 
They are in a war zone AND there was the question of ISIS wound members being treated and/or hiding nearby, if that's true then it is a target.

First of all, it's the Taliban not ISIS in Afghanistan, and organisations like the Red Cross and MSF do not belong to one side or the other in a war zone. They treat anyone who is wounded. They have always maintained absolute neutrality and civilised countries respect this policy.

Second, MSF denies that the Taliban were hiding in the hospital and I believe their spokesmen. MSF has a policy of pulling out in such a situation. They are fiercely independent and refuse to be used by any side or any government for advantage. This is the reason why I decided to support them with regular donations.

The air strikes concentrated on one particular building and left others in the compound alone. That building was the hospital itself. That is a war crime and has been for over a century. In this case there is no possibility of claiming that it was an accident. The only fog of war operating here is the smokescreen of phoney rationalisations being thrown around.

From the BBC http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34440965
 
Bullshit Ralphy. That rationale won't work in these days of GPS accuracy and "smart" bombs.

For much of the US & allied arsenal anyway. Who called the strike and why is where this chain of events started. If someone insisted regardless of information visible or existing intelligence that this was a medical facility there is the blame. Fog of war or negligence is a possibility.

Side issue. Many are complaining about Russia's use of 'dumb' bombs in Syria speaking of smart bombs.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...bs-making-syria-air-war-even-more-brutal.html
 
One of the biggest questions for me is again don't they still use a banner or flag with the medical symbol or a red cross. Besides being on a list how was this facility identified.
 
Respectfully, there will be many disagree with my take on this. Sorry....

First, it does appear as if the air strike was called in by the Afghans who said they were taking fire from the facility. Islamic terrorists, Taliban included, have shown no respect for human life. If live fire was coming from the facility, it would have been safe to assume the Taliban had overrun the hospital... killed the "good guys"... and were using it to advance their move into the city. If live fire is coming from a location, with the history of the terrorist organizations, take out the target.

Next, if there was a call that live fire was coming from this location and the "Afghan" had called in an air strike, how was it assured those Afghans hadn't either been held hostage by Taliban or been "turned". They may well have purposely called in the strike simply to make the U.S. look bad in hopes we would be exiled and they could rest their slaughter on more innocents.

And, here's where I'll catch the flak.... I feel it extremely idiotic and just plain stupid for an organization such as Doctors Without Borders to set up a facility in a country that is home to a large Islamic terrorist organization. In fact, I have no idea why these people will push to put innocent Americans in any of these Third World countries. The dollars we spend in aid to these countries should assure that not one ill or injured person go without proper care from their own. Instead of making sure our foreign aid dollars go to feeding and clothing and healing those in need, we see dictator after dictator live in gold gilded palaces and dine daily on caviar. Instead of seeing that the billions we hand out actually assist the people in need, we simply pay it as bribes to corrupt leaders and corrupt governments. Keep Americans home and let the innocents die, until we have the means to deliver the dollars to educate their own to be the health care workers.
Anyone who volunteers to bring humanitarian aid to these countries housing the terrorist organizations is taking their life in their own hands. If it isn't death by an error in calling in an air strike, it is apt to be by car bomb or beheading or by being burned alive.
 
My responses in blue.

Respectfully, there will be many disagree with my take on this. Sorry....

I'm one of them, obviously, and I've tried to explain my reasons in blue.

First, it does appear as if the air strike was called in by the Afghans who said they were taking fire from the facility. Islamic terrorists, Taliban included, have shown no respect for human life. If live fire was coming from the facility, it would have been safe to assume the Taliban had overrun the hospital... killed the "good guys"... and were using it to advance their move into the city. If live fire is coming from a location, with the history of the terrorist organizations, take out the target.

This is why an independent inquiry is necessary. The story about fire coming from the hospital needs to be checked out. Who called it in and do they stand by their claim? Or is this a furphy released to provide cover for a crime.? Also, why wasn't the raid halted when the hospital made contact after the first strike? What went wrong here?

Next, if there was a call that live fire was coming from this location and the "Afghan" had called in an air strike, how was it assured those Afghans hadn't either been held hostage by Taliban or been "turned". They may well have purposely called in the strike simply to make the U.S. look bad in hopes we would be exiled and they could rest their slaughter on more innocents.

Not likely. There are codes surely that verify who is on the line ?

And, here's where I'll catch the flak.... I feel it extremely idiotic and just plain stupid for an organization such as Doctors Without Borders to set up a facility in a country that is home to a large Islamic terrorist organization. In fact, I have no idea why these people will push to put innocent Americans in any of these Third World countries.

Innocent Americans? Medecins sans Frontiers is not an American organisation and the spokesperson I heard had a Dutch accent. At the time this hospital was set up, the Taliban was not present in Kunduz and the hospital is a civilian one, treating the local people. It is the only operational hospital in the city of Kunduz. MSF is active in many parts of the world. When the earthquake struck in Chile, they were already there. They are not first responders like the Red cross - they go into places where medical services are lacking, in the poorest places on the planet and they are often in place long before emergency aid gets there. They receive no American dollars except for private donations.

The dollars we spend in aid to these countries should assure that not one ill or injured person go without proper care from their own. Instead of making sure our foreign aid dollars go to feeding and clothing and healing those in need, we see dictator after dictator live in gold gilded palaces and dine daily on caviar. Instead of seeing that the billions we hand out actually assist the people in need, we simply pay it as bribes to corrupt leaders and corrupt governments. Keep Americans home and let the innocents die, until we have the means to deliver the dollars to educate their own to be the health care workers.

I hope you also mean keep American troops at home because that's where most of the American dollars were spent in Afghanistan. Bombs don't actually feed people.

Anyone who volunteers to bring humanitarian aid to these countries housing the terrorist organizations is taking their life in their own hands. If it isn't death by an error in calling in an air strike, it is apt to be by car bomb or beheading or by being burned alive.

I think that all of the humanitarian workers know this. Their only protection is the respect they are granted by the protagonists. In this case the US seems to have given them scant respect. How is being burnt alive in a cage worse than being burnt alive in your hospital bed? How is being beheaded worse than having your body blown to pieces by a smart bomb aimed at a hospital? As far as I can see, the only difference is that in one case it is up close and personal. In the other, the killers operate a long way off, from a room with a screen where they can't hear the screaming or smell the burning flesh.
 
Thank you Warri. My nephew works for this organisation. Perhaps The other poster is unaware of the fact that Medicin Sans Frontiers was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1999. No, they are not an American organisation. Assumptions are not the same as facts. People need to do their homework. Americans are not the only humanitarians.
 
The US military has changed its story four times in four days.

Doctors Without Borders airstrike: US alters story for fourth time in four days Commander of war in Afghanistan tells Senate panel that US forces had called in airstrike at Afghan request – ‘an admission of a war crime’ says MSF chief.

General John Campbell says the airstrike was the result of a ‘US decision’.

Link to videoSpencer Ackerman in New York

Wednesday 7 October 2015

US special operations forces – not their Afghan allies – called in the deadly airstrike on the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, the US commander has conceded. Shortly before General John Campbell, the commander of the US and Nato war in Afghanistan, testified to a Senate panel, the president of Doctors Without Borders – also known as Médecins sans Frontières (MSF) – said the US and Afghanistan had made an “admission of a war crime”.

Shifting the US account of the Saturday morning airstrike for the fourth time in as many days, Campbell reiterated that Afghan forces had requested US air cover after being engaged in a “tenacious fight” to retake the northern city of Kunduz from the Taliban. But, modifying the account he gave at a press conference on Monday, Campbell said those Afghan forces had not directly communicated with the US pilots of an AC-130 gunship overhead.

“Even though the Afghans request that support, it still has to go through a rigorous US procedure to enable fires to go on the ground. We had a special operations unit that was in close vicinity that was talking to the aircraft that delivered those fires,” Campbell told the Senate armed services committee on Tuesday morning.

The airstrike on the hospital is among the worst and most visible cases of civilian deaths caused by US forces during the 14-year Afghanistan war that Barack Obama has declared all but over. It killed 12 MSF staff and 10 patients, who had sought medical treatment after the Taliban overran Kunduz last weekend. Three children died in the airstrike that came in multiple waves and burned patients alive in their beds.

On Tuesday, MSF denounced Campbell’s press conference as an attempt to shift blame to the Afghans. “The US military remains responsible for the targets it hits, even though it is part of a coalition,” said its director general, Christopher Stokes.

Campbell did not explain whether the procedures to launch the airstrike took into account the GPS coordinates of the MSF field hospital, which its president, Joanne Liu, said were “regularly shared” with US, coalition and Afghan military officers and civilian officials, “as recently as Tuesday 29 September”.AC-130 gunships, which fly low, typically rely on a pilot visually identifying a target.

It is also unclear where the US special operations forces were relative to the fighting, but Campbell has said that US units were “not directly engaged in the fighting”. Campbell instead said the hospital was “mistakenly struck” by US forces.

“We would never intentionally target a protected medical facility,” Campbell told US lawmakers, declaring that he wanted an investigation by his command to “take its course” instead of providing further detail. But Jason Cone, Doctors Without Borders’ US executive director, said Campbell’s shifting story underscored the need for an independent inquiry.

“Today’s statement from General Campbell is just the latest in a long list of confusing accounts from the US military about what happened in Kunduz on Saturday,” Cone said. “They are now back to talking about a ‘mistake’. A mistake that lasted for more than an hour, despite the fact that the location of the hospital was well known to them and that they were informed during the airstrike that it was a hospital being hit. All this confusion just underlines once again the crucial need for an independent investigation into how a major hospital, full of patients and MSF staff, could be repeatedly bombed.”

Campbell suggested but did not say that the Afghans were taking fire from the Taliban from within the hospital grounds, a claim the Afghan government has explicitly made. MSF unequivocally denies that the hospital was a source of fire. It has also noted the precision of the strike that hit only the main hospital building and not its adjuncts.

Mary Ellen O’Connell, a professor of international law at the University of Notre Dame, said that according to international humanitarian law, the critical question for determining if US forces committed a war crime was whether they had notified the hospital ahead of the strike if they understood the Taliban to be firing from the hospital.

“Any serious violation of the law of armed conflict, such as attacking a hospital that is immune from intentional attack, is a war crime. Hospitals are immune from attack during an armed conflict unless being used by one party to harm the other and then only after a warning that it will be attacked,” O’Connell said.

The US account has now shifted four times in four days. On Saturday, the US military said it did not know for certain that it had struck the hospital but that US forces were taking fire in Kunduz.

On Sunday, it said that the strike took place in the “vicinity” of the hospital and suggested it had been accidentally struck. On Monday, Campbell said that the Afghans requested the strike and said US forces in the area were not “threatened”.

On Tuesday, he clarified that US forces called in the airstrike themselves at Afghan request. Meanwhile, the defense secretary, Ashton Carter, said in a statement on Tuesday, that the Department of Defense “deeply regrets the loss of innocent lives that resulted from this tragic event”.

Doctors Without Borders has demanded an independent inquiry, rejecting the three current investigations – by the US, Nato and the Afghans – as compromised by their partiality.

“This attack cannot be brushed aside as a mere mistake or an inevitable consequence of war. Statements from the Afghanistan government have claimed that Taliban forces were using the hospital to fire on coalition forces. These statements imply that Afghan and US forces working together decided to raze to the ground a fully functioning hospital, which amounts to an admission of a war crime,” Liu said on Tuesday.

In the past, the US has upbraided both allies and adversaries over the indiscriminate use of aerial strikes.

On Thursday, the US defense secretary said Russia was pouring “gasoline on the fire” of the Syrian civil war after it launched a campaign of airstrikes against opponents of Moscow’s ally Bashar al-Assad. A day later, the National Security Council spokesman, Ned Price, said the White House was “deeply concerned” that its Saudi ally in the Yemen conflict had bombed a wedding party, something the US itself did in Yemen in 2013. When Israel shelled a UN school in Gaza housing thousands of displaced Palestinians in August 2014, a State Department spokesman said the US was “appalled” by the “disgraceful” attack.

Addressing Tuesday’s committee hearing, Campbell confirmed that he has recommended to Obama that the US retain thousands of troops in Afghanistan beyond Obama’s presidency – reversing a plan to reduce the force to one focused on protecting the US embassy in Kabul. He argued for “strategic patience” in the longest war in US history, which has now stretched five years longer than the failed Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...irstrike-afghanistan-us-account-changes-again
 
War crimes can only occur in a declared war. If they could occur in a case like the mess of these muslim extremests don't you thing all those beheadings would qualify. There are no rules in this conflict and accidents always happen in combat.
 
Can we say possible coverup? Bring on the independent inquiry. America should be no more exempt from investigation than any other country. I stand with MSF at this time.
 


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