Israel Has Declared War after Unprecedented Hamas Attack

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davey said:
If you recall Abraham had two sons one firstly by his wife's maid servant Hagar who was identified as Egyptian? This apparently was against Gods design? - Abrahams wife later conceived and had a child. His wife became jealous and demanded that Abraham send her maidservant into the desert with her new born child. Many will know the story but it is there to read.

It was also stated that Abrahams first born was Isaac and he would become the leader of a great nation - but Gods plan was that Abraham and his wife conceive a son who would become the leader of a Jewish nation. And so brothers and probably cousins have been fighting each other ever since. You could/should blame Abraham and his wife for all of this carnage?
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If it were against the design it would not have happened. Living with conflict is not the necessary outcome of this allowed 'mistake'. Man created the conflict borne with Ishmael. Sarah's machinations do not have to lead to this.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
What amazes me is that the super spy apparatus of the US, UK, Fra, Israel, et all didn't pick up Hamas's military intensions.
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I'm wondering if they had an informant or a spy in Hamas and didn't want to expose them. Or Hamas found out about the spy and moved their planned operation up. Their spy or informant might have been blown.

I can see not knowing when the attack occurred but this took coordination and training which a spy should've found out.
 
The real support for Hamas comes from Iran, a money pipeline. I hope that the IDF does the right thing and takes out the leadership of both Hamas and Hezbola. Cut the head off the snakes. One thing that this attack will do, is unify the people of the country that was attacked, to work together to avenge the deaths of their citizens.

Killing 9 elderly Jews who were standing at a bus stop in a small border town, is the act of crazed cowards. Kidnapping other elderly Jews, and transporting them in to the territory controlled by Hamas, will result in a massive response from the IDF. Their stance is simple....WE NEVER negotiate with terrorists, we kill them, instead. Those hostages are going to die, but so are the terrorists holding them. JImB.
 
Sippican said:
Now they have taken Americans as hostages.
Why? Because they know they can extort money from the US and a weak political climate.
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That is a calculated move by Hamas, to apply pressure on the US government. IN the real world, the US is not going to get directly involved militarily. The IDF has the manpower, the equipment and the national support to deal with this terrorist threat. Kidnapping elderly people, small kids and their Parents, is designed to TERRORIZE the people of Israel. JimB.
 
An Israeli man has begged for the safe return of his wife and two children after they were kidnapped by Hamas terrorists in yesterday's sneak attack.

Yoni Asher has pleaded with the Palestinian militia 'don't hurt them' and even offered to exchange himself for his family after they were snatched while visiting his mother-in-law in Nir Oz, near the border with Gaza.

The terrified father revealed his wife Doron fearfully told him there were 'terrorists inside the house' on the phone, before seeing her on the back of a pick-up truck with other hostages on a social media video.

Dozens of people, including the elderly, women and children, were kidnapped by the terrorists during its early morning cross-border raids yesterday. Since then fierce fighting has broken out with hundreds of people killed on both sides.

Among the places targeted by Hamas was a peace festival in the desert, where they murdered dozens of people and kidnapped others, with the father of one woman who was taken left weeping after seeing his daughter pleading for her life.

Heartbreaking footage showed Noa Argamani screaming 'Don't kill me! No, no, no' as she was forced onto the back of a motorcycle by the Palestinian militants just metres away from her helpless boyfriend who was held at gunpoint.

Today her inconsolable father, Yaacov Argamani, sobbed as he voiced his fears for her safety, saying: 'she was so petrified, so scared.'
76291387-12607353-It_was_also_reported_that_Doron_Asher_34_was_taken_hostage_by_Ha-a-1141_1696772088002.jpg
76291385-12607353-Doron_s_two_daughters_Raz_five_and_Aviv_three_were_also_reported-a-1142_1696772088002.jpg
76291389-12607353-Doron_s_two_daughters_Raz_five_and_Aviv_three_were_also_reported-a-1144_1696772088014.jpg

It is a terror mirrored in the faces of dozens of other families who have no idea whether their loved ones are alive and whether they are safe after being taken by terrorists.

The attack has sparked the worst violence in the region in decades, with Israel firing missiles into Gaza, demolishing buildings and tower blocks in retaliation.

Israeli man begs Hamas for safe return of kidnapped wife and children
 
I've been watching some live cams of the area this morning... there was one right on the ground as opposed to so many on rooftops watching the skyline. Question... on the Gaza side, they have huge tire fires burning in the middle of the street and building more. I think it *may* be near the border, but that's a guess. What is the significance of starting those tire fires?

It's not keeping cars from passing because vehicles are going around it really fast and right toward each other like they're playing chicken. While I still had the live feed, I was sure someone would either get hit the way they were running around with tires to feed the fire... or that there'd be a head-on crash. Why do they do that?
 
Over the past 10 years there has been a significant decrease on both sides in believing there can be a peaceful resolution to the conflict/s. It has declined by 33% since 2013.
 
The intelligence failure was astonishing. As Israel fell silent to observe a religious holiday, it was surprised by a massive assault that nobody had anticipated. This was as close as the Jewish state had ever come to destruction. By the end, casualties were three times higher per capita than the United States had suffered in Vietnam. This was the Yom Kippur war of exactly 50 years ago. Yet it forms a disturbingly close parallel to the catastrophe that engulfs the Jewish state today.

The security errors that led to scenes of armed terrorists breaking out of Gaza and rampaging through Israeli towns yesterday require urgent explanation. In 1973, Israel’s military and political establishment was captured by groupthink, wrongly believing that the Arab armies would not attack because they feared they would lose. Was such herd hubris also to blame this weekend, as Jews celebrated the end of Sukkot?

Footage has shown militants firing their guns in residential areas. An unknown number of Israelis have been dragged away into Gaza as prisoners and Israel’s fabled intelligence services stand humiliated. Seeing crowds in Palestinian towns dancing and singing in jubilation, I can’t be alone in feeling sick to my stomach.

So begins a conflagration the likes of which have not been seen in my lifetime. Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has declared war. This means that energy and supplies to Gaza may be cut off and the Israeli armed forces will respond with huge force, targeting not just terrorist strongholds but communications systems and infrastructure. Sources have indicated that a condition of ceasefire will be the return of all Israeli prisoners and remains. Tragedy will pile upon tragedy. Dig in for the long haul.
Islamist anti-Semitism is behind Israel’s darkest hour since the Yom Kippur war
 
CallMeKate said:
I've been watching some live cams of the area this morning... there was one right on the ground as opposed to so many on rooftops watching the skyline. Question... on the Gaza side, they have huge tire fires burning in the middle of the street and building more. I think it *may* be near the border, but that's a guess. What is the significance of starting those tire fires?

It's not keeping cars from passing because vehicles are going around it really fast and right toward each other like they're playing chicken. While I still had the live feed, I was sure someone would either get hit the way they were running around with tires to feed the fire... or that there'd be a head-on crash. Why do they do that?
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The heat from the tire fires is a attempt to foil the overhead satellite cameras, by creating a large heat source. The smoke also is a vain attempt to cover up what is happening in the ground in the terrorist areas. Burning tires is an old page out of the "urban terrorist text book ". It happened in Northern Ireland by both the IRA and the Provos, in France during the student riots, and in many other places where a terrorist group was trying to destabilize the situation. Its dramatic, great for the TV cameras, right ? JimB.
 
jimintoronto said:
The heat from the tire fires is a attempt to foil the overhead satellite cameras, by creating a large heat source. The smoke also is a vain attempt to cover up what is happening in the ground in the terrorist areas. Burning tires is an old page out of the "urban terrorist text book ". It happened in Northern Ireland by both the IRA and the Provos, in France during the student riots, and in many other places where a terrorist group was trying to destabilize the situation. Its dramatic, great for the TV cameras, right ? JimB.
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Thank you, Jim. I hadn't seen your answer before I asked again. It's horrible to watch... so I stopped. Assumed there was a purpose to doing it, but couldn't figure out what it was. @jimintoronto
 
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Lilac said:
Is this the beginning of WW3? I pray not.
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Some people were sure the West's involvement in the invasion of Ukraine would kick off WWlll, but Putin knows that, if he nuked even 1 little Ukrainian village, the West could wipe out Moscow and St Petersburg within minutes, and the rest of Russia at their leisure, if needs be.

Leaders in the Middle-East don't care. They believe God is in charge, that all the infidels will die, and that those among them who are destined to lead the faithful survivors will be spared. And those among them who get killed won't really die -they'll live forever in Glory- so they've got nothing to lose. That's what makes them so scary.
 
Nosy Bee-54 said:
US defense industry companies must be operating at full blast because not only does Ukraine need to be resupplied with armaments but now Israel too. Lots of money to be made.
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The US isn't Israel's only source for military weapons and supplies. They're Israel's most reliable source, and undoubtedly the most advanced, but also the most expensive.

And speaking of expense, nobody builds military weapons and equipment for free. The technology, materials, labor and expertise costs lots of money.
 
Murrmurr said:
The US isn't Israel's only source for military weapons and supplies. They're Israel's most reliable source, and undoubtedly the most advanced, but also the most expensive.
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US Israel‘s most reliable and advanced source of military weapons? Not necessarily. Israel also has its own sources, namely itself.

”It is estimated that Israel has approximately 80 nuclear weapons. Of these, approximately 30 are gravity bombs for delivery by aircraft. The remaining 50 weapons are for delivery by Jericho II medium-range ballistic missiles, which are believed to be based with their mobile launchers in caves at a military base east of Jerusalem. The operational status of a new Jericho III intermediate-range ballistic missile is unknown. In 2013 Israel conducted a launching test of a ‘rocket propulsion system’, which appeared to be for a Jericho III missile.“
Israel Has Declared War after Unprecedented Hamas Attack
 

The greatest intelligence failure in Israeli history?​

The Jerusalem Post is an English newspaper in Israel that I have read on-and-off since we visited the Holy Land in 1998.

www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-765254 OR Hamas attack: The greatest intelligence failure in Israeli history?

[IDF = Israeli Defence Forces]

Was October 7 - the day Hamas invaded southern Israel and killed over 600 Israelis, wounded over 2,000, and kidnapped an unknown number at least in the dozens - the worst Israeli intelligence failure in history?​


Probably looking back historians will still flag the 1973 Yom Kippur War as much worse because there were more deaths and because the state's very existence was far more in danger.

But the IDF of 2023 is far more powerful than the IDF of 1973 and Hamas today is far weaker than Egypt and Syria were 50 years ago, so the issue is debatable.

How did Israel fall so far to such an inferior enemy?

How could this happen?​

First, obviously, imagination and the conceit that being superior militarily generally can always prevent an inferior adversary from victory anywhere.

There are many examples in war, going back to the battle of Thermopylae around 2500 years ago when a small group of Greeks held off a massive army of Persians for an extraordinary amount of time when an inferior group made issues for a superior overconfident, or complacent group.

Then there was a lack of understanding: IDF intelligence has many debates about many security issues, but every official who briefed the Jerusalem Post made it clear that Hamas was broadly deterred from a big conflict with Israel.

And the data seemed to support this. In numerous recent conflicts with Gaza, Hamas did not even take part. They seemed too afraid to join the fray with Islamic Jihad. They seemed to have learned the lesson of the 2014 and 2021 Gaza wars that if they jumped into the ring with Israel, they would always come out much worse.

This thinking was far too black and white as the fact is that Hamas did go to war with Israel in 2014 and 2021 despite many earlier experiences in which the IDF slammed it to the ground.

The lesson should have been that sometimes Hamas is deterred, but if it hits a low point where it feels it is getting nowhere and has nothing to lose, it is willing to fight a losing battle just to get back into the conversation.

Then there is Hamas' tactical genius in the operation.

Part of why the IDF was not ready for many of its tactics was because Hamas had not revealed them, or certainly not in huge volumes and with the complex synchronized orchestration that it pulled off.

The IDF was used to rocket fire without border riots or border riots without rocket fire.

It was used for one small group of sea commandos trying to invade Zikim beach or one or two drones or other flying contraptions being sent over the border which could be easily isolated and handled.

Instead, Hamas launched 2,000 rockets as a cover.

At the same time that it launched rockets diverting IDF attention, it also launched an entire fleet of motorized hang-gliders (something which has barely ever been discussed by the IDF) which manually dropped bombs on Israeli lookout positions. These motorized hang gliders were a brilliant tactical use of homemade retro technology with a tiny "footprint" (in terms of being able to detect them in advance) customized to pinpoint holes in the IDF's highly advanced technological apparatus.

With the lookout positions taken out, immediately after Hamas sent its forces into different crossing locations.

As the IDF started to notice that its crossing locations were under attack along with the rocket fire, its attention was diverted from the 20 or so entry points, which already lacked lookout positions, where Hamas was ready with additional large volumes of soldiers.

At the same time, Hamas did not come into Israel on land with dozens, but with hundreds of soldiers, a volume the IDF never expected.

Also, at the same time, Hamas did not penetrate Israel by sea with one group of Hamas naval commandos, but with many groups, something the navy was not ready for.

Let's also not forget that despite Israel declaring complete victory over all Hamas attack tunnels, it turns out that the terror group figured out a way to dig around a dozen new attack tunnels which the IDF's fancy billion-dollar technologies failed to detect.

All of this happened virtually simultaneously, but in a specific order to allow each next step to move forward smoothly and further confuse and overwhelm Israeli decision-makers about where and what was going on.

Part of what stunned the US on 9/11 was not just that one of the Twin Towers was attacked, but that both were separately attacked that the Pentagon was attacked around the same time and that yet another plane was hijacked at the same time.

Systems overload; The system was simply overloaded.

If Israel had its airpower and advanced land vehicles and tanks assembled for a fight, it would have mowed down Hamas. But by the time its superior forces were ready, Hamas had only needed a few short minutes to get into urban areas with Israeli civilians, neutralizing many of the IDF's technological advantages.

The IDF only started to be effective in countering the invasion when it summarily threw tons of old-fashioned ground troops at all of the Gaza border villages in a less than coordinated fashion, such that it was able to at least accidentally catch Hamas forces wherever they might happen to be.

Only once the IDF had engaged in old-fashioned house-to-house in-your-face gun battles and lost many of its forces, was it able to start using its airpower effectively again against Hamas forces which were not mostly on the Gaza side of the border.

Add in that one to two dozen IDF battalions that should have been in Gaza were stuck in the West Bank dealing with an 18-month terror wave there which should have ended long ago, that the IDF reserves' readiness has taken a hit in recent months during debates over the judicial overhaul, and that the country had its guard down for the Jewish holiday of "Simchat Torah" and there was a perfect storm.

However, the IDF handles Hamas in the upcoming ground invasion, it must toss its old border security concept out the window, and imagine a new security concept with more ground forces and more old-school redundancies that can prevent Hezbollah or any future adversary from taking advantage of a hi-tech, low-manpower border security strategy.

The writing was on the wall when one Egyptian rogue border policeman turned terrorist killed multiple IDF forces and spent hours inside Israel before being neutralized, or when Hamas and Hezbollah each broke into Israeli territory just to plant flags, with no IDF soldiers on site, or when a Hezbollah agent got all the way to Meggido to carry out a terror bombing.

If the IDF undertakes such a major strategic shift, then it may be able to relegate the debate of when its worst intelligence failure was to an academic one, instead of having to face another October 7 invasion from the North or elsewhere in the future.
 
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