Israel Has Declared War after Unprecedented Hamas Attack

[Myrtle]

So many things are in the eye of the beholder. Here's a video that shows people leaving but not the same view I mentioned.

I found another one similar to this but not the one I saw on a live report that was of a modern highway.

 

[RadishRose]

Just in case there is any confusion, may I say many Palestinians are not members of, nor support Hamas.

I have seen the title "Palestinian" lumped together in the same sentence as known terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, etc. This is so incorrect and causes hate in the minds of anti-terrorists where none belongs.

Palestinian relatives of Hamas members do not necessarily subscribe to Hamas themselves.

 

[Murrmurr]

One cable news show has highlighted the plight of a young Palestinian mother of two toddlers who was just visiting relatives. She has dual American citizenship and is from Union New Jersey. The newscaster, a Jew btw, is personally trying to help her as her own efforts are unsuccessful.

I think a lot of people don't realize there are quite a few pro-Palestinian Israeli Jews. That alienates them (the pro-Palestinian Jewish Israelis) ...leaves them feeling pretty alone, like not just their gov't but the whole world is against them.

 

[Murrmurr]

Just in case there is any confusion, may I say many Palestinians are not members of, nor support Hamas.

I have seen the title "Palestinian" lumped together in the same sentence as known terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, etc. This is so incorrect and causes hate in the minds of anti-terrorists where none belongs.

Palestinian relatives of Hamas members do not necessarily subscribe to Hamas themselves.

Exactly.

I just posted about that above, in post #378.

 

[RadishRose]

I think a lot of people don't realize there are quite a few pro-Palestinian Israeli Jews. That alienates them (the pro-Palestinian Jewish Israelis) ...leaves them feeling pretty alone, like not just their gov't but the whole world is against them.

Yes, it must be the group who are against Zionism; the ones who believe Jews should not take that land until the Messiah comes. I don't remember the name.

 

[jimintoronto]

Is Hamas still shooting rockets into Israel? I can't find news on that. How many rockets could Hamas possibly have left?

They have more than enough to go on for as long as they can. Their funding from Iran is just about unlimited. Yes, they are still firing rockets into Israel. I have seen photos of large tractor trailer trucks with three sets of rocket launchers mounted on the trailer, a 48 foot long flat bed trailer. A total of 36 rockets in total, on one truck.

Obviously, the truck can be moved around and when Hamas wants to send some rockets, the truck stops, and within a few minutes the rockets are being launched. Reloading the rockets will take time, but probably a period of hours, not days, and I am sure Hamas has more than one of these trucks.

These are NOT precision guided weapons, they are crude unsophisticated explosive rockets. They are fired in salvoes of 12 at a time. The Israeli air defense systems are knocking down MOST of them, but some always get through. Remember that even if the anti rocket system hits a rocket in the air, the exploding Hamas rocket still falls to the ground, possibly killing or injuring people on the ground. JimB.

 

[TabbyAnn]

Just in case there is any confusion, may I say many Palestinians are not members of, nor support Hamas.

I have seen the title "Palestinian" lumped together in the same sentence as known terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, etc. This is so incorrect and causes hate in the minds of anti-terrorists where none belongs.

Palestinian relatives of Hamas members do not necessarily subscribe to Hamas themselves.

Hamas in Gaza refers to themselves as Palestinians. The majority of people in Gaza refer to themselves as Palestinians. The term that includes both is Muslim.

 

[jimintoronto]

I will point out that the Gaza strip does have a border with Egypt at the southern tip . Egypt has refused to allow any Palestinians to enter Egypt. The obvious question is WHY ? The Government of Egypt must have strong reasons for doing that, wouldn't you think? JimB.

 

[RadishRose]

Hamas in Gaza refers to themselves as Palestinians.

That's because Gaza is located in the area that was once called Palestine.
Palestinians are a people, not a political group.
Not all Palestinians belong to the political group called Hamas.
Muslim, is just the name of one who follows Islam, a religion many or most people in The Middle East follow.

 

[rgp]

I will point out that the Gaza strip does have a border with Egypt at the southern tip . Egypt has refused to allow any Palestinians to enter Egypt. The obvious question is WHY ? The Government of Egypt must have strong reasons for doing that, wouldn't you think? JimB.

Perhaps they [Egypt] just chooses not to become involved ? Take sides ?

 

[Myrtle]

I will point out that the Gaza strip does have a border with Egypt at the southern tip . Egypt has refused to allow any Palestinians to enter Egypt. The obvious question is WHY ? The Government of Egypt must have strong reasons for doing that, wouldn't you think? JimB.

I think Egypt has its own problems with terror along with a host of other problems. One reason I've noticed popping up online is that they think Israel won't let them return to Gaza once they are out. Maybe Egypt is waiting for a big financial incentive to accept them. Or maybe they haven't accepted the view that they are civilians and not Hamas. I don't know their reasons but I think it could be a combination of those and probably a few more.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

Yes the atrocities were appalling. But will killing a huge number of innocent people make it right. I can understand the need for revenge but I can only imagine the fear of ordinary families. How can they get away, to where?

Hamas is saying stay, Israel warning to flee. It must be like the end of the world.

The question is, is Israel's action self defence?

I agree.
This is the beginning of a new Israel/Hamas conflict. Israel has to respond to the murdering and hostage taking of its citizens. It can't over react with a prolonged devastation of Gaza and extreme loss of Arab life, that revenge would inflame the Arab world, bringing more resources to Hamas. But Israel has to respond forcefully enough to quell the calls for revenge at home.
Israel has always responded with over kill, which in the long run alienates Israel, as well as Hamas.

 

[Naturally]

One elephant in the room is what about the West Bank?

Why is there no news of Hamas support from the West Bank, where some close to 3 million Palestinians live right next to Israel?
Is it because perhaps Hamas isn't as strong an influence there?
Is it because world focus is currently on Gaza?
Or something else?
Just seems the Palestinian population of the West Bank is of little to no concern right now.

Well, Fatah runs the West Bank as they did in Gaza until they lost the election to Hamas in Gaza and were booted.

Fatah is supposedly more willing to work with Israel on a two state solution while acknowledging Israel’s right to exist and not demanding extinction of the Jews. I wouldn’t necessarily trust them but they’re claiming to be less death culty than Hamas and have behaved themselves much better ... so there’s that.

I don’t imagine openly supporting Hamas in the West Bank is a life prolonging event ... much as NOT supporting Hamas in Gaza is any kind of option for one who wants to live a pain free existence in Gaza ... until Hamas makes them stay home to die as propaganda martyrs.

So NO, not all Palestinians are Hamas. Hamas to Palestinians is simple a governing party much as the multiparty system of government or rule any other country might have. Only Hamas is a resistance movement and military organization as well.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I wonder who the Palestinians in Gaza wish they'd voted for now? ... Hamas or Fatah

 

[Naturally]

From the IDF website ...

IDF fighter jets struck 750 military targets in the northern Gaza Strip overnight

The IDF struck 750 military targets overnight, including underground Hamas terror tunnels, military compounds and posts, residences of senior terrorist operatives used as military command centers, weapons storage warehouses, comms rooms and targeted senior terrorist operatives.

Dozens of fighter jets struck numerous Hamas military targets in the Gaza Strip, including 12 Hamas military assets, each located in a multi-story building used by the Hamas for terror purposes.

In parallel, IDF soldiers from a special unit targeted three Hamas operatives that specialize in mortar fire in the Gaza Strip, in a military command center in Gaza City, from which mortar shells were launched toward Israeli territory.

Attached is a video of the thwarting of the Hamas operatives that specialize in mortar fire:
https://videoidf.azureedge.net/7f8e3f2b-3507-4ad7-9b17-57a11efc2269

 

[Lilac]

This is self-defense for a nation. Israel is defending themselves & their remaining people after a massacre of families in their homes & festival goers at a concert. They are fighting an enemy who has called for their complete destruction & death of their people.

Showing & using greater strength against your attacker is not over kill in order to put a complete & final end to it. Especially when a group like Hamas has called for your total destruction & death of your people.

I believe others have said something similar here before. You can't talk to terrorists who will not listen. They don't have our values & don't think like you or I. They are driven by an ideology they will not give up & are willing to die for. They will not live in peace with anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

If they take their own civilians with them, including their own families to reach their goal ... they don't care because to them it's justified in their mind because of their end goal. It doesn't make sense to me & probably not to you. It's a play they've used before in the past in order to get sympathy from the world for "their losses", to turn their victim into "the bad guy" & make themselves "the victim".

We all would like to see an end to this with no further loss of life, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

 

[Naturally]

It's Saturday morning in Israel and this the most current IDF spokesperson situational update from this morning ...
A very interesting listen on the current IDF situation in Gaza concerning Palestinian civilians

https://x.com/IDF/status/1713037101896204637?s=20

 

[OneEyedDiva]

I really hate what HAMAS is doing. Their attacks are unconscionable, despicable, heinous, cowardly and have cast we Muslims in a bad light yet again, have caused unspeakable harm to both Israelis and Palestinians. Let's not forget that among the dead and injured are innocent children on both sides. Unfortunately, some (ignorant) people lump Muslims with no malice in their hearts, who are going about their lives, just trying to make it like everyone else, into the terrorist mold. Most of the over one billion Muslims in the world are not terrorists and do not support terrorists activities.

Another thing these terrorists do is call out the name of God (Allah) while perpetrating these horrible deeds. That in of itself is a major sin. I hope they all burn in the hottest, most agonizing hell there is. Here are Quranic Surahs about killing of innocents:
“O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.”
(5:8 - Saheeh International translation)

"[w]hoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.”
(5:32 – Saheeh International translation)

“And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.”
(8:61- Saheeh International translation)

Here is an explanation about Surah 5:32 from The Fountain.com

"KILLING UNJUSTLY AND RETALIATION​

The murder stated in the verse as equal to killing all of mankind is limited to “killing an innocent person who did not cause disorder or corruption on the earth.” This means that if a person sheds the blood of innocent people, there can be retaliation and that killer can face a penalty similar to his own crime. If such a person causes disorder on the earth and therefore causes people to die, if the killings follow one upon another without the killer thinking why they had taken a life and if the victims do not know why they are being killed-as is happening in some parts of the world today-the criminal or the group of criminals who cause such anarchy can be executed.

The people who start wars against God and His Messenger, who cause disorder on the earth, who habitually transgress against people’s lives, properties, and chastity, thereby disturbing the order of society, corrupting the generation, should be executed or sent into exile in accordance with the gravity of their crime."

 

[Buckeye]

Here's an article that popped up this morning on MSN about how the Muslim world is reacting to the slaughter of innocents in Israel.

Muslims across middle east...

from the article..
Hezbollah knows its duties very well and we are ready and fully prepared,” Hezbollah’s deputy secretary-general Naim Qassem said in the Beirut rally. “The Israeli goal of wiping out Gaza will be a path to their extinction,” he added.

 

[Pepper]

I think a lot of people don't realize there are quite a few pro-Palestinian Israeli Jews. That alienates them (the pro-Palestinian Jewish Israelis) ...leaves them feeling pretty alone, like not just their gov't but the whole world is against them.

I wonder today about this woman and her kids stranded when they should be in Jersey.

The immigrants travel too much today to become truly Americanized. That's a big problem. Our grandparents couldn't, would never, return or visit. When they left the "old country" they left for good.

 

[bingo]

I think Egypt has its own problems with terror along with a host of other problems. One reason I've noticed popping up online is that they think Israel won't let them return to Gaza once they are out. Maybe Egypt is waiting for a big financial incentive to accept them. Or maybe they haven't accepted the view that they are civilians and not Hamas. I don't know their reasons but I think it could be a combination of those and probably a few more.

the Palestinians were in Egypt..after 6 day war..1973...the Egyptians ran them out when their radical jihadists tried to overthrow the government

 

[Naturally]

@OneEyedDiva ... You are a strong woman and a good person. I've liked you from the git-go and enjoyed reading your posts. I learned that you are a Muslim and that did not change anything. I respect you. The fact that you stayed up late with much on your heart and mind and thoughtfully composed a concise response from a Muslim's point of view is not lost and is greatly appreciated. May Allah reward with goodness.

We are a week into this and I was waiting for moderate Muslims to condemn what Hamas did. And still waiting for a prominent group of Muslims or even a single notable figure in the Muslim community from anywhere in the world to speak up against the Hamas atrocities. It's eerily the same as when ISIS was beheading people - no one in the Muslim community really spoke out, unless they were condemning ISIS through their silence.

It seems while most Muslims aren't willing to kill others themselves to further the agenda of Allah, they have nothing but tolerance for anyone who does. Perhaps this passage explains it, "Muhammad is God's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" (Sura 48:29)

What's more, the Qu'ran makes it clear that the only way to be GUARANTEED admittance to heaven is by dying in the act of killing the infidel, Jihad.

Although Muslims are to face the Last Day, where their time in hell is to be determined (with sins weighed against good deeds) Muhammad laid down an exception for martyrs - those who are slain in the cause of Allah - at a time when he conveniently needed them. They get the fast track to Paradise where they wait on the rest (Quran (3:169-170)). A martyr doesn't necessarily have to kill anyone, but a Muslim is required to join the battle (if able) and at least make an attempt to kill (Quran (9:39)). All this to say: Apparently no, Muslims generally aren't going to condemn Hamas. Hamas is doing the holy work of Allah.

So does the Qu'ran say to kill non-believers and infidels? The Koran (translated by Dawood in Penguin Classics series)says, "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (Sura 9:5). "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads" (Sura 47:4). "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate" (Sura 9:73). "The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan" (Sura4:76). And who exactly are these idolaters and unbelievers and infidels? Those who are not strict Muslims. At least that is the belief of the "radical" arms of Islam.

An argument could be made that the way Mother Theresa lived her life is the way anyone who would refer to themselves as Christian should live their life. From what I have read about her, she truly did not care about the things of this world - she only lived to bring loving help and aid to anyone who truly needed it. (Of course, how would she do that without monetary aid from Christians who hold down jobs?) But, the point is, Mother Theresa still shines as an example of someone who was truly dedicated to the cause of Christ. And, even though few Christians live as she did, they all admire her for her dedication. She was "right" with God through her selfless deeds.

Do Muslims in general, then admire and tolerate "radical" Islamist for their dedication and perhaps sure path straight to heaven? Islam's teaching, in this regard, differs from that of other religions such as Christianity and certainly helps explain the violence: Religion, for many, is often a major stabilizing force. By contrast, Islam promotes internal anxiety by keeping any true degree of comfort that one has ultimately pleased Allah enough to avoid Hell, out of reach.

For example, In 2015, Jamaican cleric, Abdullah al-Faisal, told his followers that killing is the only sure way for sinning Muslims to avoid Hell: "Some people are so sinful, after living in Dar ul-Harb (the West) for many years, the only way they can go to Paradise is for them to die on the battlefield fighting for Allah. When you go to the battlefield and you kill the kuffar (non-Muslims), they shall take your place in the hellfire."

So there is apparently a divergent view from many in the Muslim community regarding what is and what isn't. As would be found in any population or community of course. The world is a harsh, complex place in which we live. I wish peace for all were possible without wars, killing and the loss of innocent lives. Religion should be the least obstacle to overcome, if an obstacle at all.

 

[Della]

@OneEyedDiva, I've been waiting for you to post. I hope you know that we know Hamas does not represent all Muslims and we feel for you at this time with all this anger flying in all directions.

 

[hollydolly]

Thousands of pro-Palestine supporters have begun their march through London as police warn that anyone showing support for Hamas or deviating from the route could face arrest.

Men, women and children of all ages are boasting placards demanding the Israeli government to 'stop bombing Gaza'. The chants from emotional pro-Palestine supporters can be heard streets away as a sea of Palestinian flags floods the capital city.

The gathering comes as Palestinians began a mass exodus from northern Gaza after Israel's military told them to evacuate ahead of an expected ground invasion.

The UN, human rights groups and others have been among those expressing deep concern about the impact of Israeli action on civilians, as the death toll continues to grow amid airstrikes and a siege on the territory.

The Metropolitan Police Service said they have deployed more than 1,000 officers to police the demonstration, in which people will be marching in solidarity with Palestinians amid the ongoing Israel-Hamas conflict.

This morning BBC headquarters, located close to the start of the planned protest, was sprayed with red paint amid the controversy over its refusal to call Hamas terrorists.

Thousands of protesters gathered outside the BBC's Broadcasting House ahead of the march. Palestine flags and supportive placards were waved as people chanted, with Metropolitan Police and community support officers stationed nearby.

It comes as the Met Police deployed 300 officers specifically to tackle safety fears for London's Jewish population, amid a huge spike in reported hate crimes since the beginning of the conflict last Saturday.

Between 29 September and 12 October 2023 there were 105 reports of anti-Semitic incidents and 75 anti-Semitic offences in London. That is compared with 14 anti-Semitic incidents and 12 anti-Semitic offences during the same time the previous year.

There has also been a rise in Islamophobia. During the same time-frame there have been 58 Islamophobic incidents and 54 Islamophobic offences. In the same fortnight the previous year there were 31 Islamophobic incidents and 34 Islamophobic offences.

See how less threatening our, Jewish, Muslims and Palestine supporters seem to be... ?..they're doing what everyone should be doing and protesting peacefully...

Support Hamas and you will be arrested, Met Police warns protesters

 

[hollydolly]

This is what our recent prime Minister Boris Johnson said this morning....

When I saw the murder of those 260 revellers at the Nova music festival, I wept — as any father would — because those kids could have been yours or mine.

When I saw what Hamas did at Kibbutz Kfar Aza and elsewhere, my mind went back to the time I was working on a kibbutz in Galilee — and I thought how utterly defenceless we were, how innocently we went out to pick apples or dig ditches, because we were in exactly the same state of mind as those Israelis who were living near Gaza last Saturday.

We knew there could be trouble; we knew that there was a risk of missile attack. But we believed that the Israel Defense Forces were the most vigilant in the world, and that Israeli intelligence was more than capable of alerting us to any danger.

So when I think of the massacre that took place a week ago, I understand the shock of the Israeli people. I share their rage. Israel is morally entitled — even obliged — to eliminate those responsible, to make sure such a thing as the October Massacre never happens again.

This is not because I hunger for some Old Testament revenge, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Israel must act because that country has been attacked with a mercilessness we have not seen since its foundation in 1948.

Israel must act because it is vital that we dismantle the Hamas machine, and restore confidence in the Israeli security services and in the military.

Read the rest here... BORIS JOHNSON: There IS one chance for peace in the Middle East...

 

[Naturally]

@hollydolly ... Has the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, had anything to say?