Israeli October 7 posterchild was killed by Israeli tank, eyewitnesses reveal

Nathan said:
Taking "sides" in this matter is like a toss-up on who has more blood on their hands. :rolleyes:
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I'll take it a step further. Taking sides on this matter puts the blood on one's own hands by routing for more killing for either side. You talk about ashamed. My conscience is fine, because I refuse to take a side. That is certainly not true for many here who are so 100% convinced of their particular narrative.
 

Paco Dennis said:
... you are assuming that I haven't done due diligence in researching, either images or reporting. Why would you assume that?
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Because these photos were only recently released, and most the ones you find online are partially censored. My point was there's uncensored ones online, too.

I just wasn't sure you'd seen those particular ones.
 
Paco Dennis said:
I'll take it a step further. Taking sides on this matter puts the blood on one's own hands by routing for more killing for either side. You talk about ashamed. My conscience is fine, because I refuse to take a side. That is certainly not true for many here who are so 100% convinced of their particular narrative.
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Nobody's rooting for more killing. Well, I'm pretty sure nobody here is, anyway.

Coming down on one side or another has nothing to do with blood; it depends on who you believe is the aggressor and who is the victim of aggression.
 

Murrmurr said:
Because these photos were only recently released, and most the ones you find online are partially censored. My point was there's uncensored ones online, too.

I just wasn't sure you'd seen those particular ones.
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You can be sure I have seen loads of uncensored pics, and videos in the past few days from both sides of this horrible war. I don't accept them as TRUTH. None of them, from either side. Context is everything regarding these matters, and it is beyond bewildering how some people can be swayed to believe they tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. To me, that is the root cause of ignorance which leads to hate. It takes a non-judgmental position to be able to see these complexities...and once they are realized it is not so easy to be favoring one side or the other. Most people want to be sure, not understanding.
 
Paco Dennis said:
... It takes a non-judgmental position to be able to see these complexities...
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It takes knowing the history of the region and the culture of the people who have lived there and are living there to understand the complexities and nuances of what's happening there today.

Certainly one can be non-judgemental about the whole thing until then.
 
Paco Dennis said:
In a desperate bid for international sympathy, the Israeli government has sought to stir outrage over the killing of a 12-year-old girl during the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel on October 7.
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Israel had no desperate need for international sympathy after the Oct.7 attack. They were focused on their own response rather than international response, and they were quite capable of carrying it out. The “desperate bid” statement in the article is shoddy journalism.
 
Paco Dennis said:
Kinda like what an Israeli soldier said about beheading babies. When we now know that it wasn't true, all based on ONE PERSON...blown out of all proportion and that becomes the rallying cry to obliterate all Palestinians?
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Who has a rallying cry to obliterate all Palestinians?? Israel could have obliterated Gaza and the West Bank both in a matter of days but they didn’t. They didn’t bomb the West Bank at all, and they allowed many of the Palestinians in Gaza to migrate to safety out of the combat zone. Israel has the most technologically advanced military on earth and is ranked 4th in the world in overall military power, and this is just due to its smaller size of the military.
 
Paco Dennis said:
Why are most you insulting me? I don't understand. You can agree, disagree, not know, or anything, but to attach me...for what? These are what has been said about me.

Shame on you Paco. Shonda.
If you were referring to the word “shonda” itself, it is a Yiddish word that means “a disgrace,” “a shame,” or “a terrible embarrassment” 4. It is often used to describe something that is shameful or scandalous

If I don't believe in a narrative, I don't. I look at several sources of information coming from many different views. You will give me the courtesy of having my own point of view, or I will stalk you down and tickle you! :)
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You want I should not act like a Jewish Grandma? No tut, tut? That's gonna be tough, as I am. Go ahead, stalk me down. Tickle me. I have neuropathy, so I won't feel it.

I have no problem with you providing alternative information, Paco. What I didn't like was your own narrative and delivery of it. You sounded frantic, like someone who is afraid to say something but must, and so rushes to just spit it out. That was my objection and sorry I was not clear on my own delivery.

As a Jew who has friends & family in Israel, I can tell you, it is very very complicated. I have much to say about the complexity but I have to hold back from sharing for now. I am also unsure as to how much I can "get away" with speaking on this forum.
 
I think when we post something that is obviously highly controversial or especially inflammatory, we need to expect some backlash and not be offended or feel "attacked" when that backlash happens.

There have been times I've started to post a new topic/thread but then decided against it. I'm not at all overly sensitive, but I try to establish if something would be purposely inciteful... and especially if I know full well that nothing I say will change anyone's mind. Sometimes discretion really *is* the better part of valor.
 
TabbyAnn said:
Who has a rallying cry to obliterate all Palestinians?? Israel could have obliterated Gaza and the West Bank both in a matter of days but they didn’t. They didn’t bomb the West Bank at all, and they allowed many of the Palestinians in Gaza to migrate to safety out of the combat zone. Israel has the most technologically advanced military on earth and is ranked 4th in the world in overall military power, and this is just due to its smaller size of the military.
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I think it is a huge rallying cry to kill all Palestinians, which IS genocide.

 
TabbyAnn said:
Who has a rallying cry to obliterate all Palestinians?? Israel could have obliterated Gaza and the West Bank both in a matter of days but they didn’t. They didn’t bomb the West Bank at all, and they allowed many of the Palestinians in Gaza to migrate to safety out of the combat zone. Israel has the most technologically advanced military on earth and is ranked 4th in the world in overall military power, and this is just due to its smaller size of the military.
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This is how the narrative of 40 babies being beheaded inflamed the emotional support for atrocious revenge.

 
Pepper said:
You want I should not act like a Jewish Grandma? No tut, tut? That's gonna be tough, as I am. Go ahead, stalk me down. Tickle me. I have neuropathy, so I won't feel it.

I have no problem with you providing alternative information, Paco. What I didn't like was your own narrative and delivery of it. You sounded frantic, like someone who is afraid to say something but must, and so rushes to just spit it out. That was my objection and sorry I was not clear on my own delivery.

As a Jew who has friends & family in Israel, I can tell you, it is very very complicated. I have much to say about the complexity but I have to hold back from sharing for now. I am also unsure as to how much I can "get away" with speaking on this forum.
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I am feeling very similar in that I feel all those involved that are suffering so. If I could comfort you, and I am trying, please accept my warmest feelings for you. This whole thing is horrible, and you did make a valid observation. I am very clumsy at expressing myself when things are very complex. Sorry, I will practice as much tact as I can, under the circumstances.
 
Paco Dennis said:
This is how the narrative of 40 babies being beheaded inflamed the emotional support for atrocious revenge.

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The media is whipping up hysteria on both sides, and major news outlets in particular use splashy headlines and then bank on people not reading past the first couple of paragraphs.

Again, I get that you're looking for where the truth lies, and I'll say again it's in the history of that region and the culture of the people who live and have lived there since the time of the Ottoman Empire and particularly over the past 80 years.

It really is, Paco. And if you read up on that, you'll find that what's going on there now isn't all that muddy or complex.

But I'll assume you have read up on it...What do you find so confusing?
 
I think referring to any innocent victim in this nightmare as a posterchild is just wrong. If you want to refer to a terrorist that way, go for it.

Wondering about the continued trauma this is going to cause.
 
Murrmurr said:
The media is whipping up hysteria on both sides, and major news outlets in particular use splashy headlines and then bank on people not reading past the first couple of paragraphs.

Again, I get that you're looking for where the truth lies, and I'll say again it's in the history of that region and the culture of the people who live and have lived there since the time of the Ottoman Empire and particularly over the past 80 years.

It really is, Paco. And if you read up on that, you'll find that what's going on there now isn't all that muddy or complex.

But I'll assume you have read up on it...What do you find so confusing?
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Please refer me to unbias
 
Paco Dennis said:
Please refer me to unbias
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Books are your best bet (non-fiction, obviously).

My recommendations - Apeirogon by Colum McCann (hope I spelled that right); The Age of Co-Existence by Ussama Makdisi; The Hundred Years War, don't remember the author at the moment ....really just about any books about the cultural history and previous conflicts of that region, and try to find both Jewish and Arabic authors.
 
I don't get it

The Ottoman Empire was a powerful state that ruled over much of the Arab world from the 16th to the early 20th century. Before the Ottoman conquest, the Arab world was home to various peoples and civilizations that had different cultures, religions, and languages. Some of the most prominent ones were:

  • The Arabs: The Arabs were the native inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula, the Syrian Desert, and parts of Mesopotamia. They spoke Arabic, a Semitic language, and followed various religions, such as paganism, Christianity, Judaism, and later Islam. The Arabs were divided into many tribes and clans, some of which formed kingdoms and empires, such as the Nabataeans, the Ghassanids, the Lakhmids, and the Himyarites. The Arabs played a major role in the history of the region, especially after the rise of Islam in the 7th century, which unified most of them under a common faith and political system. The Arabs expanded their territories through conquest and trade, creating the Rashidun, Umayyad, and Abbasid caliphates, which spanned from Spain to India at their peak. The Arabs also contributed to the fields of science, literature, art, and architecture, and influenced the cultures of their neighbors and successors123
  • The Persians: The Persians were the dominant people of Iran and parts of Central Asia. They spoke Persian, an Indo-European language, and followed Zoroastrianism, a monotheistic religion that worshiped Ahura Mazda, the creator god. The Persians established several powerful empires, such as the Achaemenid, the Parthian, and the Sasanian, which rivaled the Romans and the Byzantines for control of the Middle East. The Persians also developed a rich and sophisticated culture, with achievements in art, literature, philosophy, and law. The Persians were among the first to adopt Islam after the Arab conquest, but they retained their distinct identity and language, and influenced the development of Islamic civilization24
  • The Byzantines: The Byzantines were the eastern continuation of the Roman Empire, which split into two halves in the 4th century. The Byzantines spoke Greek, a Indo-European language, and followed Orthodox Christianity, a branch of Christianity that differed from the Roman Catholic Church on matters of doctrine and authority. The Byzantines ruled over most of Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt, and parts of North Africa, and maintained a strong military and diplomatic presence in the region. The Byzantines also preserved and transmitted the classical heritage of Greece and Rome, and developed a distinctive artistic and architectural style, known as Byzantine art. The Byzantines faced constant threats from their enemies, such as the Persians, the Arabs, the Turks, and the Crusaders, and eventually collapsed in 1453, when the Ottoman Turks conquered their capital, Constantinople2
  • The Jews: The Jews were the descendants of the ancient Israelites, who originated in the land of Canaan, also known as Palestine or Israel. They spoke Hebrew, a Semitic language, and followed Judaism, a monotheistic religion that worshiped Yahweh, the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Jews had a turbulent history, marked by periods of independence and exile, prosperity and persecution, unity and division. The Jews were conquered by various empires, such as the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and the Arabs, and dispersed throughout the world, forming the Jewish diaspora. The Jews maintained their religious and cultural identity, despite the challenges and hardships they faced, and produced influential works of literature, such as the Torah, the Talmud, and the Kabbalah. The Jews also interacted with and influenced the other peoples and religions of the region, such as Christianity and Islam2
 
Murrmurr said:
Books are your best bet (non-fiction, obviously).

My recommendations - Apeirogon by Colum McCann (hope I spelled that right); The Age of Co-Existence by Ussama Makdisi; The Hundred Years War, don't remember the author at the moment ....really just about any books about the cultural history and previous conflicts of that region, and try to find both Jewish and Arabic authors.
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Yes I am very aware of this history. What does that have to do with the current war? They are always warring?
 
Paco Dennis said:
Yes I am very aware of this history. What does that have to do with the current war? They are always warring?
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Always warring? I wouldn't put it that way. For centuries there's been tension, distrust, and oppression, but not always military conflict or even always local skirmishes.

The history has everything to do with the current war, especially the past 80 years. That IS what it's about.
 
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