Israeli October 7 posterchild was killed by Israeli tank, eyewitnesses reveal

Debrah N. said:
Into that equation, in fairness, factor in that the Israeli's also massacred Palestinians starting in those early days.

At Deir Yassin in 1948, 100 people, whole families in a village were massacred by the Irgun and Stern Gang, led by Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir who went on the become prime ministers of Israel. All told, 800 Palestinian villagers died in the process of Israel 'becoming a nation'. Those deaths were the incentive for 7 million to flee the country, losing everything and never being allowed to return to their homes.

And the many hundreds of deaths of Palestinians since then in both the West Bank and Gaza. Not to mention those hundreds who were never charged or convicted but were locked up in military prisons where they are abused and violated for years.

At Sabra and Shatilla in 1982, Lebanon's paramilitary killed at a minimum 400 (some accounts say up to 3600) Palestinians and Ariel Sharon's soldiers guarded the entrances to the camp so that none could escape.

It isn't unbelievable that the hate on both sides has festered for so long. But it can end if only the powerful decided it was time to end. Arafat and Rabin almost got them there. Northern Ireland is an example of an occupied 'nation', at war for decades with it's occupier and yet they finally found peace which is why they speak for the Palestinian people. Same with S. Africa, who lived under the similar oppression. So change is possible.
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Now read the other side of the story:
The Capture of Deir Yassin
 

Debrah N. said:
I understand how so many here are completely aligned with the Israeli's. What happened on October 7th was horrible beyond. belief and I can't imagine how terrible it was for those people who were taken. My heart goes out to all of them, alive and dead.

But where every talking head starts every conversation with 'do you condemn what Hamas did', I am wondering, does anyone condemn how Israel has treated those people every day, every night, for years? Has anyone ever wondered what it must be like to put your children to bed at night, only to hear pounding on the door at 2 AM and have a platoon of soldiers shove your whole family into a room together while they live in your house for a week, and being cruel and unkind and going through and breaking all your things? Has anyone thought what it would be like to be a labouring mother who is stopped at a checkpoint long enough for your newborn to die?

I understand being more supportive of one then the other, but does that mean we no longer have the barest sympathy for others because they aren't our favourite?
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Tell us, what unprovoked actions has Israel taken?
Why did the Palestinians elect Hamas? Why do they allow Hamas to remain? Why do they allow Hamas to use children as shields? Why do they allow Hamas to take all humanitarian aid for themselves?
 
PurplePansies said:
Guess they shouldn’t have let Hamas take over their country! Did you see the Palestinians celebrating on October 8th? Guess they shouldn’t have poked the bear. He’s finally had enough. Every single death and injury is 100% on Hamas!
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They sure did. And they did the same celebrating in the streets after 9/11. I think there's one way "onlookers" around the world *want* to believe the Palestinian population is... but the bitter truth is very different.
 

CallMeKate said:
They sure did. And they did the same celebrating in the streets after 9/11. I think there's one way "onlookers" around the world *want* to believe the Palestinian population is... but the bitter truth is very different.
[/QUOT
And the people who try to defend the hatred of Jews, go ballistic if they’re reminded of what the Nazis did, if they don’t outright deny the Holocaust.
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Debrah N. said:
Into that equation, in fairness, factor in that the Israeli's also massacred Palestinians starting in those early days.

At Deir Yassin in 1948, 100 people, whole families in a village were massacred by the Irgun and Stern Gang, led by Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir who went on the become prime ministers of Israel. All told, 800 Palestinian villagers died in the process of Israel 'becoming a nation'. Those deaths were the incentive for 7 million to flee the country, losing everything and never being allowed to return to their homes.

And the many hundreds of deaths of Palestinians since then in both the West Bank and Gaza. Not to mention those hundreds who were never charged or convicted but were locked up in military prisons where they are abused and violated for years.

At Sabra and Shatilla in 1982, Lebanon's paramilitary killed at a minimum 400 (some accounts say up to 3600) Palestinians and Ariel Sharon's soldiers guarded the entrances to the camp so that none could escape.

It isn't unbelievable that the hate on both sides has festered for so long. But it can end if only the powerful decided it was time to end. Arafat and Rabin almost got them there. Northern Ireland is an example of an occupied 'nation', at war for decades with it's occupier and yet they finally found peace which is why they speak for the Palestinian people. Same with S. Africa, who lived under the similar oppression. So change is possible.
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I knew a family who fled the terror you speak of in 1948.
 
i'm guessing all the participants in the 1948 battles are no longer with us, and that is all irrelevant today. Plus I just keep remembering what the Hamas leader recently said: "10/7 was just a rehearsal".

So if you are tying to dismiss/justify/minimize/defend/rationalize the brutal 10/7 terrorists attacks by the Hamas toward Israelis, be prepared to take the blame when Hamas makes good on their promises and tries to delivery the real show. There will be blood on your hands.
 
PurplePansies said:
Tell us, what unprovoked actions has Israel taken?
Why did the Palestinians elect Hamas? Why do they allow Hamas to remain? Why do they allow Hamas to use children as shields? Why do they allow Hamas to take all humanitarian aid for themselves?
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I never said anything about 'unprovoked actions'. What I have mentioned were points of historical facts and issues that have happened under Israel's rule. Locking children up in military prisons, abusing Palestinian families in the middle of the night, depriving communities of food and water, babies dying because their labouring mothers are held up at checkpoints, destruction of Palestinian homes, settlers attacking and even killing Palestinians while IDF looks on.....and I've never denied that at times, individual Palestinians have have attacked Palestinians and caused deaths. But the deaths have largely, even outside of these periodic attacks on Gaza by the Israeli government/military, have largely been on the Palestinian side.

According to one perspective that you can read here........ How George W. Bush Helped Hamas Come to Power, Palestinians voted for Hamas (74 seats to 45 for Fatah) because they wanted an end to corruption in the government that ruled them. The new government started as a unity government even though neither party was all that interested in sharing power......fighting between the two groups started and Hamas went back on the deal and started killing members of the other party.


Palestinians DID NOT VOTE for what Hamas became. And now they are prisoners of both Israel and of Hamas. Given Hamas violence, why do you think they 'allow' Hamas to steal humanitarian aid? And keep in mind too, that the young people who weren't even born at the time of the elections, have grown up under an awful system of deprivation, wars, death, no jobs, little hope and Hamas propaganda. From all around the world, we've all been witness to the effects that the wrong/evil propaganda can do to entire countries.

The article that I linked is actually very interesting and something that I'd never read about til tonight so I'm glad you raised the questions you did.
 
PurplePansies said:
Now read the other side of the story:
The Capture of Deir Yassin
Click to expand...
I'm working my way through the article you linked and so far, it seems to fill out what I pointed out, that '100 people were killed, including whole families' and it seems to me that if a village has 400 people as your article says Deir Yassin had, then 100 dead could be construed as a massacre. (I'm continuing to read by the way)
PurplePansies said:
And...There was a lot of terror in that region in 1948 and both Jews and Muslims fled. I hope you read the article I cited. My point being, there is another perspective.
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There is a saying that 'history is written by the victors'. But like you just said, there is always another perspective. I came across the name of a documentary video that was called Tantura, made in Israel and about the time that I'm guessing, the 'event' happened at Deir Yassin. I've heard repeatedly, how only Hamas rapes and kills. But, in the clip I saw of the documentary, it features old veteran Israeli soldiers from back in that time, admitting to some pretty heinous things including rapes. The thing that's notable about the clip is that as they're talking about some of the things they did in 1948, they were smiling. Not a pained, ashamed look in any of them.

So I looked for the documentary online, did find it and while I don't particularly want to buy or rent it, it did have a trailer and in the portion shown there, those same veterans I saw in the original clip I watched, admitted to unsavoury actions. War is war, young men fight those wars and too often, young men can be completely cruel given the 'right' circumstances. You can watch the trailer here.....https://www.amazon.com/Tantura-Teddy-Katz/dp/B0B8K2WY73

In my search for understanding, I've put a great deal of faith in the words of a Jewish 'Palestinian activist' named Miko Peled. His father was one of the generals that was involved in planning the 6-Day war. His mother turned down the free home of a Palestinian family who got kicked out of their Jerusalem home after 1948, his family lost a niece to a suicide bomber, and his father (the general) eventually became an outspoken promoter of real peace with the Palestinian people too.

From that very interesting perspective, Miko decided to do a deep-dive on the events of the 6-Day war and what followed, with the result being that he has become an outspoken advocate for the Palestinian people. In this video.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ&list=PLEX3S6ZFSv1TFi84X4mv5gH2CJ2pvyaBa&index=16&t=1680s. he was speaking 12 years ago to a church congregation in Seattle, Washington. What he discovered about the 6-Day war is quite different than what is commonly thought.

I guess my point in all of this is, that what governments tell us is not always the truth. And as everyday civilians, it behooves all of us to remember that and to remember that it is always the innocent civilians who pay the price for the machinations of those governments. We pay the price wherever we are and we're the ones who are left with the guilty memories and the scars. Isn't it time for us to start backing one another up? Bringing Love into the picture and trying hard to overcome the darkness of mankind's hearts?
 
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Buckeye said:
i'm guessing all the participants in the 1948 battles are no longer with us, and that is all irrelevant today. Plus I just keep remembering what the Hamas leader recently said: "10/7 was just a rehearsal".

So if you are tying to dismiss/justify/minimize/defend/rationalize the brutal 10/7 terrorists attacks by the Hamas toward Israelis, be prepared to take the blame when Hamas makes good on their promises and tries to delivery the real show. There will be blood on your hands.
Click to expand...
Except some of those participants are still with us and their words have been immortalized in a 2022 documentary film called Tantura and I originally saw a clip on a podcast (which is where I got the name and then looked it up) and the old vets talking on it, spoke of rapes, people being gunned down while they run from the houses in their pyjamas, shooting groups of men who were in barb wired enclosures.....

I think you're misunderstanding everything I've said on this issue. I have NEVER defended what Hamas did or has ever done. But unlike so many, I'm not excusing what Israel has done and is doing every day to Palestinians.
 
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Debrah N. said:
Except some of those participants are still with us and their words have been immortalized in a 2022 documentary film called Tantura and I originally saw a clip on a podcast (which is where I got the name and then looked it up) and the old vets talking on it, spoke of rapes, people being gunned down while they run from the houses in their pyjamas, shooting groups of men who were in barb wired enclosures.....

I think you're misunderstanding everything I've said on this issue. I have NEVER defended what Hamas did or has ever done. But unlike so many, I'm not excusing what Israel has done and is doing every day to Palestinians. To continue to insinuate that is completely dishonest.
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Well, I can only go by what I read in your posts, and they all have the same message: "Israel bad". That in itself is a defense of Hamas.

Sorry.
 
Debrah N. said:
Except some of those participants are still with us and their words have been immortalized in a 2022 documentary film called Tantura and I originally saw a clip on a podcast (which is where I got the name and then looked it up) and the old vets talking on it, spoke of rapes, people being gunned down while they run from the houses in their pyjamas, shooting groups of men who were in barb wired enclosures.....

I think you're misunderstanding everything I've said on this issue. I have NEVER defended what Hamas did or has ever done. But unlike so many, I'm not excusing what Israel has done and is doing every day to Palestinians. To continue to insinuate that is completely dishonest.
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PurplePansies said:
You truly are ill informed and only seeing what you want to see.
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Actually, I think I'm pretty well informed because I've been looking at this for a number of years. I decided to look into it when a Palestinian/Israeli MP named Ahmed Tibi walked out on Canada's Stephen Harper when he made a speech in the Knesset. Because I really didn't know anything about Israel's problem at that time, I decided to find out what was going on, what it was all about.

I've read UN investigation reports, Jewish human rights reports, Israel's Haaretz News as well as The Times of Israel, a couple of books about the history of Israel in that area, Jimmy Carter's book Peace Not Apartheid. And I've watched numerous Jewish activist videos like Professor Norman Finkelstein, Miko Peled's, etc., as well as half a dozen Breaking the Silence exposes where ex-IDF soldiers talk about their activities in the West Bank and Jerusalem. The one thing I made a point of not deliberately looking at is anything that had an Arab source (like Al Jazeera for example) because I always figured that kind of source would definitely have a bias.

I'm not a Holocaust denier either and I've never supported what Hamas did now or in the past.
 
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Buckeye said:
Well, I can only go by what I read in your posts, and they all have the same message: "Israel bad". That in itself is a defense of Hamas.

Sorry.
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Well you're right, I haven't bought into the Israeli government narrative. But that isn't to say that I think Hamas deserves defending or excusing. Doesn't matter how much you want to believe that.
 
Pepper said:
I'm a native New Yorker. If we ever get in a fight only one of us walks away. It won't be you. Hugs, and don't get upset. You did start a controversy, so now you must take what goes with that. I trust your heart Paco; I consider it in all you profess.
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And I'm a Jersey girl...you know, not far from New Yorker, and we don't play either.
@jimintoronto so that means you throwing shade at me saying STFU is ghetto talk is my "Jersey Girl" coming out. Know that I've seen just as many people who obviously are not from ghettos use the F word! I do not, nor never have I lived in a ghetto. In fact, I hate the word and use it very rarely. The F word is all the rage now. It's hard to even watch a TV show on premium channels without hearing it in every other sentence. Are the writers from "the ghetto"? I think not.

I'm wondering if anyone has addressed the fact that Israel knew about the planned attack for more than a year before it happened and chose to ignore the warnings from credible people, not once but twice! I would say that lays some of the responsibility on their "intelligence" officials and the upper echelon of government who were made aware of these plots, outlined in a 40 page document, according to The Times.

It was also pointed out that the U.S. was not made aware of those plans When I first heard about the attack by Hamas, I thought Israeli "intelligence" really dropped the ball, but after hearing the latest news....dropping the ball is giving them too much credit! Apparently the threat was not taken seriously because Israel's powers that be thought Hamas couldn't pull it off. I wonder how the families of the kidnap victims are reacting to that news. :unsure:
US and Israeli officials react to blockbuster report that Israel knew Hamas was planning attack

That being said, I'm out of the discussion about this war. I'm tired of war, I'm tired of the countless, senseless deaths (on both sides) and the inane comments by a few, who have now been put on Ignore. Peace people.
 
Debrah N. said:
I'm working my way through the article you linked and so far, it seems to fill out what I pointed out, that '100 people were killed, including whole families' and it seems to me that if a village has 400 people as your article says Deir Yassin had, then 100 dead could be construed as a massacre. (I'm continuing to read by the way)

There is a saying that 'history is written by the victors'. But like you just said, there is always another perspective. I came across the name of a documentary video that was called Tantura, made in Israel and about the time that I'm guessing, the 'event' happened at Deir Yassin. I've heard repeatedly, how only Hamas rapes and kills. But, in the clip I saw of the documentary, it features old veteran Israeli soldiers from back in that time, admitting to some pretty heinous things including rapes. The thing that's notable about the clip is that as they're talking about some of the things they did in 1948, they were smiling. Not a pained, ashamed look in any of them.

So I looked for the documentary online, did find it and while I don't particularly want to buy or rent it, it did have a trailer and in the portion shown there, those same veterans I saw in the original clip I watched, admitted to unsavoury actions. War is war, young men fight those wars and too often, young men can be completely cruel given the 'right' circumstances. You can watch the trailer here.....https://www.amazon.com/Tantura-Teddy-Katz/dp/B0B8K2WY73

In my search for understanding, I've put a great deal of faith in the words of a Jewish 'Palestinian activist' named Miko Peled. His father was one of the generals that was involved in planning the 6-Day war. His mother turned down the free home of a Palestinian family who got kicked out of their Jerusalem home after 1948, his family lost a niece to a suicide bomber, and his father (the general) eventually became an outspoken promoter of real peace with the Palestinian people too.

From that very interesting perspective, Miko decided to do a deep-dive on the events of the 6-Day war and what followed, with the result being that he has become an outspoken advocate for the Palestinian people. In this video.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ&list=PLEX3S6ZFSv1TFi84X4mv5gH2CJ2pvyaBa&index=16&t=1680s. he was speaking 12 years ago to a church congregation in Seattle, Washington. What he discovered about the 6-Day war is quite different than what is commonly thought.

I guess my point in all of this is, that what governments tell us is not always the truth. And as everyday civilians, it behooves all of us to remember that and to remember that it is always the innocent civilians who pay the price for the machinations of those governments. We pay the price wherever we are and we're the ones who are left with the guilty memories and the scars. Isn't it time for us to start backing one another up? Bringing Love into the picture and trying hard to overcome the darkness of mankind's hearts?
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I don’t read screeds.
 
Debrah N. said:
Well you're right, I haven't bought into the Israeli government narrative. But that isn't to say that I think Hamas deserves defending or excusing. Doesn't matter how much you want to believe that.
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{shrug} not a question of what I believe. It is a fact clearly evident in your posts. And certainly I'm not the only one who sees it.

Sadly, you are not the only Hamas supporter on here.
 
Debrah N. said:
You're a very stubborn person who doesn't listen to anyone except your own ideas aren't you? For the umpteenth time, I Do Not Support Hamas.
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lol - Stubborn? No, but resolute in calling out people who continue to post nothing but anti-Israel material, which IS support of Hamas, then try to say they don't support Hamas. But have a nice day.
 
Buckeye said:
lol - Stubborn? No, but resolute in calling out people who continue to post nothing but anti-Israel material, which IS support of Hamas, then try to say they don't support Hamas. But have a nice day.
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100% agree with you Buckeye. I honestly cannot believe that in the US in 2023 we are having to deal with anti-Semitism that can only be compared to what went on in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s! What the H is wrong with these people?! They are truly anti-Semites ala the Nazis or, they are so incredibly naive as to believe the garbage being spewed by Hamas and the Palestinians. Actually, they are probably both! I can only imagine the garbage they were spewing after 9/11 - "Oh, enough innocent people have died. We shouldn't start a war with Iraq, too many civilians will die." When will they grasp the concept that these terrorists do not walk around in military uniforms nor do they adhere to the Geneva Convention! SMH!
 
PurplePansies said:
100% agree with you Buckeye. I honestly cannot believe that in the US in 2023 we are having to deal with anti-Semitism that can only be compared to what went on in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s! What the H is wrong with these people?! They are truly anti-Semites ala the Nazis or, they are so incredibly naive as to believe the garbage being spewed by Hamas and the Palestinians.
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I can't believe much of what I'm seeing, either. I love history and have studied it for decades... I know what happened when the world turned a blind eye in the 30s/40s. I know the results of sitting by and watching, doing nothing... we all know the results. Our dear @Pepper knows them more than most. And here we are again.

I can't even respond much to these threads any longer because it's surreal that it's like the world went back in a time machine and in true Twilight Zone fashion, no one sees history repeating. And then the "silent protestors" clap and chant "good answer, good answer!" I know history isn't everyone's strong suit, but dang!
 
PurplePansies said:
100% agree with you Buckeye. I honestly cannot believe that in the US in 2023 we are having to deal with anti-Semitism that can only be compared to what went on in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s! What the H is wrong with these people?! They are truly anti-Semites ala the Nazis or, they are so incredibly naive as to believe the garbage being spewed by Hamas and the Palestinians. Actually, they are probably both! I can only imagine the garbage they were spewing after 9/11 - "Oh, enough innocent people have died. We shouldn't start a war with Iraq, too many civilians will die." When will they grasp the concept that these terrorists do not walk around in military uniforms nor do they adhere to the Geneva Convention! SMH!
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Actually, the Israeli's don't adhere to the Geneva convention (they've violated 28 of the resolutions) either which strictly prohibits the act of occupying a country and removing the inhabitants to replace them with their own. Think 'occupied West Bank' and the continual construction of ILLEGAL Israeli settlements.

But besides that, I have a policy of taking people at their word, something more people should take a shot at. But considering the what, 16000 dead Palestinian people, it's pretty rich to be patting yourself on the back while exclaiming how 'too many civilians die'. Anyway, I was pretty much aware that some people are locked in to accepting government narratives even when the evidence of the fallacy of those narratives, proves otherwise. Personally, it's my hope and prayer that it won't be too many more years before the two groups benefit from the same 'come to God moment' as happened in S. Africa and Northern Ireland and there is finally peace in that region. For the sake of both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people.
 

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