It’s a boy!

Aunt Bea said:
I'm curious about the benefits or drawbacks associated with not having a title.

Is that an attempt to allow Archie the chance of a more normal life, etc...
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A title is only automatic for some grades of Royalty. Otherwise it is conferred by the Sovereign.

For instance, the title of Princess was conferred on Diana. It has not on Camilla, nor as yet, on Megan.

While Eugenie and Beartrice are both princesses, Zara isn't.
 
Zara isn't because princess Anne made that choice, despite the Queens' pleas to the contrary ( at the time) ...
 

Laurie said:
A title is only automatic for some grades of Royalty. Otherwise it is conferred by the Sovereign.

For instance, the title of Princess was conferred on Diana. It has not on Camilla, nor as yet, on Megan.

While Eugenie and Beartrice are both princesses, Zara isn't.
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Interesting. I was wondering the other day about how Diana got the title.

Now, who is Zara?
 
Bonnie said:
Interesting. I was wondering the other day about how Diana got the title.

Now, who is Zara?
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Zara is Princess Anne's daughter, and entitled to the same obsequies as William and Harry.

She is her mother's daughter, an Olympic medal winner on her own merit and a redoubtable woman.

As has been punted out, the title of Princess was declined, as was, I think, though I'm not so sure about this, the term of address HRH. She could still ask for it if she wished.


A bit cynical about the Royals I may be, but I'm an old fashioned guy and I would still bow to her, and not sit in her presence without permission, and even with such permission not sit while she stood.
 
What is considered protocol toward royalty on the part of people who are not their subjects? In other words, if I should happen to unexpectedly run into the Queen, am I supposed to bow?
 
hollydolly said:
Ooooh you are a proper gentleman Laurie, what good manners you have... shame that's all but died out !!
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Not so much a matter of politeness but protocol. I would have done the same for Diana, but very, very reluctantly, and only while the marriage lasted!

Those who owe no fealty to the Queen have no need to bow, though it is common courtesy. I would offer the same courtesies to the sovereigns of Holland, Denmark and so on as I do to my own.

Having been brought up to it I would be just as polite to the Comte de Paris (King of France, ), George Freidrich, Prince of Prussia (the current Kaiser) and Prince Nikolai, widely accepted to be Tsar of All the Russias (other claimants exist)!
 
Bonnie said:
Interesting. I was wondering the other day about how Diana got the title.

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It's my understanding that she wasn't technically Princess Diana as referred to by press and public, but was Princess of Wales. Kate and Meghan have the titles Princess William and Princess Harry, but don't use them unlike Princess Michael who uses the title along with her husband's name. Need a Brit to verify all that! It's my guess that Kate will eventually be called Princess Kate/Catherine informally as Diana was when she becomes Princess of Wales.
 
Sunny said:
What is considered protocol toward royalty on the part of people who are not their subjects? In other words, if I should happen to unexpectedly run into the Queen, am I supposed to bow?
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I think only her subjects are expected to bow, Sunny but not 100% sure. Not being a subject I wouldn't.
 
From Meghan's Instagram on Mother's Day ...

iu
 
AnnieA said:
It's my understanding that she wasn't technically Princess Diana as referred to by press and public, but was Princess of Wales. Kate and Meghan have the titles Princess William and Princess Harry, but don't use them unlike Princess Michael who uses the title along with her husband's name. Need a Brit to verify all that! It's my guess that Kate will eventually be called Princess Kate/Catherine informally as Diana was when she becomes Princess of Wales.
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While the "Princess" bit is important particularly by those who set store by such things, it is the honorific HRH which is the important bit. That is decided by the sovereign.

Being married to the son of usurper Kate will eventually be known as Princess of Wales, but she will never get that form of address from me.

No matter what Princess Michael of Kent calls herself she will never get more than the normal courtesy shown to a female from me - the raising of the hat, standing when she does, handing out of or into a conveyance etc.
 
Sunny said:
What is considered protocol toward royalty on the part of people who are not their subjects? In other words, if I should happen to unexpectedly run into the Queen, am I supposed to bow?
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You wouldn't bow as a female you would curtsey... but, only if you were introduced to her, and not if you bumped into her in the park walking the dogs!!
 
hollydolly said:
You wouldn't bow as a female you would curtsey... but, only if you were introduced to her, and not if you bumped into her in the park walking the dogs!!
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Not quite right there HD. Although it is not followed much these days, if you owe fealty to the sovereign you should always, without exception, bow or curtsy as appropriate each time the Queen as she approaches/passes you, even if she does it ten times in as many minutes.

Have a look at some news footage of her attending church at Sandringham pr Crathie. Every member of the family will bow or cuiosy as she passes. All should do the same.

Some twenty years ago I became aware of a bit of a fuss locally as a helicopter landed in the school playing field. I realised it was Princess Anne visiting and by the time her limo swept past I was out of the car and able to bow.

As there was just me she, bless her, inclined her head and smiled gently.

THAT'S what the Royal Family is all about.
 
Laurie said:
While the "Princess" bit is important particularly by those who set store by such things, it is the honorific HRH which is the important bit. That is decided by the sovereign.

Being married to the son of usurper Kate will eventually be known as Princess of Wales, but she will never get that form of address from me.

No matter what Princess Michael of Kent calls herself she will never get more than the normal courtesy shown to a female from me - the raising of the hat, standing when she does, handing out of or into a conveyance etc.
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Son of usurper? 'Splain, please.
 
Laurie said:
Not quite right there HD. Although it is not followed much these days, if you owe fealty to the sovereign you should always, without exception, bow or curtsy as appropriate each time the Queen as she approaches/passes you, even if she does it ten times in as many minutes.

Have a look at some news footage of her attending church at Sandringham pr Crathie. Every member of the family will bow or cuiosy as she passes. All should do the same.

Some twenty years ago I became aware of a bit of a fuss locally as a helicopter landed in the school playing field. I realised it was Princess Anne visiting and by the time her limo swept past I was out of the car and able to bow.

As there was just me she, bless her, inclined her head and smiled gently.

THAT'S what the Royal Family is all about.
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Except, my husband who worked with Prince Philip ( name dropper that I am)... asked that very question of the queen's secretary at the time Sir Robert Fellows, and was told no, her Majesty would not expect anyone to bow or curtsey if they haven't been introduced ...so horses mouth , almost !!
 
her Majesty would not expect anyone to bow or curtsey if they haven't been introduced ...
Of course she wouldn't, would be very ill bred of her to do so (now we're back to Princess Michael of Kent!), it's what polite society expects though. The Queen's secretary is hardly the expert in this field, and HM would not expect him to be telling people whether or not they should bow. This would be a matter for Head of Protocol, perhaps the Lord Chamberlain.

It is only ever a matter of courtesy or convention, but no member of the Upper Ten Thousand would ever think of failing to pay proper respect. Those of a certain age may remember the gentleman who had to be warned by the police because he threatened to horsewhip a reporter who made disparaging remarks about the Queen!
 
C'est Moi said:
Son of usurper? 'Splain, please.
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Prince Charles has been declared Prince of Wales, but the true Prince of Wales, my Prince of Wales for I am Welsh, is a direct descendant of Llewellyn the Great, and lives in North Wales.

Llewellyn was removed, and the Welsh subjugated, by force of arms, and a usurper installed, and every prince since has been a usurper.

That is why many of my countrymen and women will set foot in Caernafon Castle. It is where the English carry out their investitures, including the latest, Prince Charles, and is a hated symbol, flaunted by the English, as proof of their domination of Wales.
 
Laurie said:
Prince Charles has been declared Prince of Wales, but the true Prince of Wales, my Prince of Wales for I am Welsh, is a direct descendant of Llewellyn the Great, and lives in North Wales.

Llewellyn was removed, and the Welsh subjugated, by force of arms, and a usurper installed, and every prince since has been a usurper.

That is why many of my countrymen and women will set foot in Caernafon Castle. It is where the English carry out their investitures, including the latest, Prince Charles, and is a hated symbol, flaunted by the English, as proof of their domination of Wales.
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Thanks for the clarification.
 
Laurie said:
her Majesty would not expect anyone to bow or curtsey if they haven't been introduced ...
Of course she wouldn't, would be very ill bred of her to do so (now we're back to Princess Michael of Kent!), it's what polite society expects though. The Queen's secretary is hardly the expert in this field, and HM would not expect him to be telling people whether or not they should bow. This would be a matter for Head of Protocol, perhaps the Lord Chamberlain.

It is only ever a matter of courtesy or convention, but no member of the Upper Ten Thousand would ever think of failing to pay proper respect. Those of a certain age may remember the gentleman who had to be warned by the police because he threatened to horsewhip a reporter who made disparaging remarks about the Queen!
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Laurie, you're so wrong, Sir Robert Fellows most certainly is an expert in these matters, not only was he the Queens personal private secretary for a very long time .. he is also married to Princess Dianas' sister...and therefore ex brother-in-law to Prince Charles
 
hollydolly said:
Laurie, you're so wrong, Sir Robert Fellows most certainly is an expert in these matters, not only was he the Queens personal private secretary for a very long time .. he is also married to Princess Dianas' sister...and therefore ex brother-in-law to Prince Charles
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He's just the hired help!

Not born and bred to it like generations of Lords Chamberlain or Dukes of Norfolk.

The nest monarch's secretary is already employed, by Prince Char. When Charles moves into his new job, so will his secretary. They will both, no matter how well trained, will be totally without experience.

The Norfolk family have been there almost since the Conquest. The family name is Fitzalan Howad which can be traced to the Normans. He is also hereditary Earl Marshall, and will be solely responsible for the next coronation, so he knows a bit about these things, a bit more the some Johnny-come-lately scribbler!
 

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