Legal definition of a woman

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VaughanJB said:
I agree - in general, they don't. But when it comes to say, competitive sports, it's a different question.

You also can't brush aside societal norms. They may offend. In abstract thinking they perhaps shouldn't matter. But when your boss of 20 years comes in one day in a dress and complains about the pronouns used....... well, problems occur.

Trans people should be treated equally - but some things aren't equal. Sex assigned bathrooms are not equal. As a man, no woman would expect to find me in their assigned bathroom. A female sprinter would not expect me racing against them. Context is everything.
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Too much common sense.
 

VaughanJB said:
I agree - in general, they don't. But when it comes to say, competitive sports, it's a different question.

You also can't brush aside societal norms. They may offend. In abstract thinking they perhaps shouldn't matter. But when your boss of 20 years comes in one day in a dress and complains about the pronouns used....... well, problems occur.

Trans people should be treated equally - but some things aren't equal. Sex assigned bathrooms are not equal. As a man, no woman would expect to find me in their assigned bathroom. A female sprinter would not expect me racing against them. Context is everything.
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well, yes I already stated in several posts that competitive women's sport is an issue - was not disputing that.

The women's equality movement was not much about sports though so wasn't seeing your connection to undermining what women's movement has fought for. Still don't really.

I doubt somebody very often suddenly comes i n wearing a dress and complains about pronouns though. (men of course wear various forms of dresses and skirts sometimes anyway) but transgendering takes place over time
If someone were in transition or had transgendered I would call them by the pronoun of the gender the are/had transitioned to. I might make mistakes o n that sometimes but would try my best - and I hope most people would and most transgenderd people would accept that and accept unintentional mistakes.

Bathrooms are tricky and I'm not sure what the answer is there.
as much as possible have gender neutral bathrooms - but of course that doesnt help with bathrooms already there.
 

January said:
well, yes I already stated in several posts that competitive women's sport is an issue - was not disputing that.

The women's equality movement was not much about sports though so wasn't seeing your connection to undermining what women's movement has fought for. Still don't really.

I doubt somebody very often suddenly comes i n wearing a dress and complains about pronouns though. (men of course wear various forms of dresses and skirts sometimes anyway) but transgendering takes place over time
If someone were in transition or had transgendered I would call them by the pronoun of the gender the are/had transitioned to. I might make mistakes o n that sometimes but would try my best - and I hope most people would and most transgenderd people would accept that and accept unintentional mistakes.

Bathrooms are tricky and I'm not sure what the answer is there.
as much as possible have gender neutral bathrooms - but of course that doesnt help with bathrooms already there.
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The saying is, the devil is in the details.

In general terms, I doubt many would object to the "equal rights for all, including transgender" stance. But the details.... sports, bathrooms.... etc. I confess, if I've known you are a male for a lifetime, I'm going to struggle to think of you are a female. Does that make me prejudice? Does my saying "she", when everything in my being is saying "he", really make a difference?

I might want you to call me many things, but you are not obligated to do so. Are you?

The bottom line for me is - born with the sex of a male - you're male. There is nothing you can do about it. It just is. It's a fundamental. If you have no trouble changing pronouns..... then good for you. But I won't lie and say it'd be natural for me.
 
fuzzybuddy said:
Human sexuality is complex. There is the body and there is the mind. Most of the times there are in sinc as to which sex they are. Sometime they are not. If a person feels their mind does not agree with the body's sex, and wants to live according to their mental image, I feel why in the hell not, it ain't gonna matter. But a male/female body is a male /female body regardless of what the mental sexual image is. A competition restricted to males or females depends on the body's sex, per DNA, not mental image.
People don't become transsexuals on a lark, it's an excruciating mental affair. I think the laws have to be rewritten to give everyone the same rights as a person of the other gender, but also the right of one gender to compete with members of the same genetic sex in games.
And as far the the scare tactic about transsexuals in bathrooms, to date there is not 1 verified incident.
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Regardless of how many surgeries or medications one takes to become a gender other than that one is born as, DNA remains the same. Male DNA is just that and vice versa.
 
VaughanJB said:
The saying is, the devil is in the details.

In general terms, I doubt many would object to the "equal rights for all, including transgender" stance. But the details.... sports, bathrooms.... etc. I confess, if I've known you are a male for a lifetime, I'm going to struggle to think of you are a female. Does that make me prejudice? Does my saying "she", when everything in my being is saying "he", really make a difference?

I might want you to call me many things, but you are not obligated to do so. Are you?

The bottom line for me is - born with the sex of a male - you're male. There is nothing you can do about it. It just is. It's a fundamental. If you have no trouble changing pronouns..... then good for you. But I won't lie and say it'd be natural for me.
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I didnt say I would have no trouble, I said I would try my best.
I might make unintentional mistakes but I certainly wouldn't stubbornly insist on calling somebody by their birth gender if they are transitioning or have transitioned and requested otherwise.
I guess I am not obligated to do so but it seems very churlish not to.

The bottom line t o me is that I ca n respect other people wanting to transition and give them the courtesy and respect I would give anyone else
Just because it doesn't apply to me or I cannnot understand it - they just fundamentally do. It isnt about me.
 
January said:
I didnt say I would have no trouble, I said I would try my best.
I might make unintentional mistakes but I certainly wouldn't stubbornly insist on calling somebody by their birth gender if they are transitioning or have transitioned and requested otherwise.
I guess I am not obligated to do so but it seems very churlish not to.

The bottom line t o me is that I ca n respect other people wanting to transition and give them the courtesy and respect I would give anyone else
Just because it doesn't apply to me or I cannnot understand it - they just fundamentally do. It isnt about me.
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Here's the problem as I see it. I don't call a woman a female, she, or her, by a conscious decision. I've done it all my life, it's automatic. If a person is obviously a woman, I assume female. If a man, dressed as a woman, is convincing, then I'll call them a woman too (or her). It's very deeply ingrained.

But if someone is obviously a male, then they're a him. A male. A man. Often, I have to go counter to custom, and pretend otherwise.

In other words, don't be obvious. I don't feel I am obligated to go along with someone else's choices. I'm not being deliberately contrary, I'm just following societal norms. Is following societal norms "stubborn"? I don't think so. Surely trans women know what the characteristics of a being a man are? In short, pretending to be a woman isn't the same as actually being a woman,. I certainly wouldn't set out to offend them, but if I make a mistake..... isn't that to be expected?

Frankly, my only concern is where it truly matters. Sports. Bathrooms. Normal every day activities - wear a dress, whatever. I don't care.
 
Mitch86 said:
One is DEFINITELY a male if one has a MALE SEX ORGAN and DEFINITELY a female if one has a FEMALE SEX ORGAN. All other combinations should be banned as total INSANITY! The only species with TWO sex organs are EARTHWORMS!
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What should be done about the people who don't fit in with the blanket statement in your first sentence? Banishment?
 
RedAlert76 said:
I can not bad mouth the transgender as I can only imagine the hell one goes goes through. However, society can not and should not 'change the rules' simply because someone decided to do things differently. Sports- they should be banned . But they could have trans sports and compete against each other. ;)
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I think you are talking about adult professional sports. What about children's amateur sports? Could there not be a place for any child regardless of their gender identification? Where is the harm?
 
January said:
well, yes I already stated in several posts that competitive women's sport is an issue - was not disputing that.

The women's equality movement was not much about sports though so wasn't seeing your connection to undermining what women's movement has fought for. Still don't really.

I doubt somebody very often suddenly comes i n wearing a dress and complains about pronouns though. (men of course wear various forms of dresses and skirts sometimes anyway) but transgendering takes place over time
If someone were in transition or had transgendered I would call them by the pronoun of the gender the are/had transitioned to. I might make mistakes o n that sometimes but would try my best - and I hope most people would and most transgendered people would accept that and accept unintentional mistakes.

Bathrooms are tricky and I'm not sure what the answer is there.
as much as possible have gender neutral bathrooms - but of course that doesn't help with bathrooms already there.
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Rest rooms for disabled people are unisex. Why not have separate cubicles where people of any gender - male, female or trans could have one at a time privacy?
 
VaughanJB said:
In short, pretending to be a woman isn't the same as actually being a woman,. I certainly wouldn't set out to offend them, but if I make a mistake..... isn't that to be expected?
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Yes.
And I said as much - unintentional mistakes are to be expected. They happen anyway, even in situations totally unconnected to transgendered.
Ie busy on the phone, out corner of my eye, see a tall man with short hair, please have a seat, sir.
And then look again and see she is a woman.
Unintentional mistake, just apologise.

Difference between unintentional mistakes and stubborn refusal to accept someone has transgendered and call them accordingly.
Social norms is to call people by what they want to be called, not decide yourself that you won't do so because they are 'pretending'
That seems quite dismissive to me and minimising the commitment of transgendering.
 
Warrigal said:
Rest rooms for disabled people are unisex. Why not have separate cubicles where people of any gender - male, female or trans could have one at a time privacy?
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Yes that seems the ideal and some places do that.

Doesn't solve the issue of bathrooms already in place though.
 
commonsense seems to be lacking?? - in our camping days I was often on "pee duty" we had a separate toilet tent set up - as in the dark evenings and at night when the "girls" - all the girls ; any girl" wanted to use one most of them would call on one of the older males to stand on guard duty outside of the toilet tent - none of us minded ; or got embarrassed or as far as I was aware became aroused

- it was in the right context as sex usually is apart from say rape?? AND of all the transitioned males and females I have observed in real life or on TV exposure - it is not difficult to observe their male and female traits - they are quite obvious?
 
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January said:
Yes that seems the ideal and some places do that.

Doesn't solve the issue of bathrooms already in place though.
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@January, we aren't talking about "bathrooms".

There is a big difference between the public lavatories built in the old days for men and for women.

I personally would have no problem with a trans woman using the ladies' facilities. After all, there is always a door for every cubicle. Nor would I object if a trans person chose to use the handicapped toilet, but that is a far from ideal solution.

I can see a very big problem for a trans woman who has to use the men's where there are a few cubicles and many urinals. I think it is spiteful to insist that that is where they should relieve themselves.
 
so the sexual mores of our societies are changing faster than the facilities are - that's a pity we need more works persons to deconstruct and re-construct don't we - more employment and wages hurrah!!
 
Warrigal said:
@January, we aren't talking about "bathrooms".

There is a big difference between the public lavatories built in the old days for men and for women.

I personally would have no problem with a trans woman using the ladies' facilities. After all, there is always a door for every cubicle. Nor would I object if a trans person chose to use the handicapped toilet, but that is a far from ideal solution.

I can see a very big problem for a trans woman who has to use the men's where there are a few cubicles and many urinals. I think it is spiteful to insist that that is where they should relieve themselves.
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well of course I used the term bathrooms meaning toilets.

Yes I agree with you - I would have no problem either.
 
we may find that angels are asexual when we finally meet some ; and maybe all those creatures that some tell us fly around the atmospheres in spaceships large and small may also be asexual who knows - we seem to be getting hung up with testicles and tits??
 
Yes, Smiley angels are believed to be asexual. They are spiritual beings, usually referred to as "he" but only in the "all humans" sense simply because our language doesn't have a pronoun that fits. "It," is for inanimate things and would be insulting. Which leads us back around to the problem of what to call people who are unsure of their gender.

They have chosen, "they," which annoys many people because we already use that word for the plural. Maybe we'll come up with something else soon.
 
Della said:
Yes, Smiley angels are believed to be asexual. They are spiritual beings, usually referred to as "he" but only in the "all humans" sense simply because our language doesn't have a pronoun that fits. "It," is for inanimate things and would be insulting. Which leads us back around to the problem of what to call people who are unsure of their gender.

They have chosen, "they," which annoys many people because we already use that word for the plural. Maybe we'll come up with something else soon.
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who?? believes angels to be asexual apart from you ? - any references there for your work? and should we be interfering with anyone who is unsure of their gender ? - have you done any surveys [extensive] on this or just making it up as you go along?
 
smiley said:
who?? believes angels to be asexual apart from you ? - any references there for your work? and should we be interfering with anyone who is unsure of their gender ? - have you done any surveys [extensive] on this or just making it up as you go along?
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You asked a valid question. I'd like to research it more, but don't have time this morning, so for now I just Googled "are angels asexual per the bible," and found that most sources support the view of the poster you were replying to (angels are asexual) plus this general AI statement:

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Golly, Smiley, I thought you were asking for opinions, I didn't realize I had to have done research at Harvard's School of Divinity before responding to one of your posts.

Here's what a site called Catholic Answers says: "Angels are pure intellects that do not have physical forms and do not reproduce sexually. Indeed, angels do not reproduce at all; God created each of them out of nothing at the dawn of creation. They are numerous, immaterial, and immortal, so they donā€™t need to reproduce."

As for "interfering" with people who are unsure of their gender. What? I'm not planning on bothering anyone, but one of the clerks where I shop is non-binary and prefers to be called "they," so I do what they prefers.
 

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