Legal definition of a woman

Status
Not open for further replies.
January said:
Yes.
And I said as much - unintentional mistakes are to be expected. They happen anyway, even in situations totally unconnected to transgendered.
Ie busy on the phone, out corner of my eye, see a tall man with short hair, please have a seat, sir.
And then look again and see she is a woman.
Unintentional mistake, just apologise.

Difference between unintentional mistakes and stubborn refusal to accept someone has transgendered and call them accordingly.
Social norms is to call people by what they want to be called, not decide yourself that you won't do so because they are 'pretending'
That seems quite dismissive to me and minimising the commitment of transgendering.
Click to expand...

The thing is, if I don't know you, I don't know you. I don't know if you're going to a fancy dress party or this is your normal attire. I do know that if someone addressed me as "her", it wouldn't bring my world crashing down. I'd always try and be polite, but it has to make sense to my worldview and life experience.

This is the issue. A trans woman has chosen to step out the norm, and to present themselves as the opposite sex. That's their choice, and they are entitled to make it. They should not be stopped or prevented from making that decision for themselves. However, along with that they're asking everyone else to buy into it, and to change their own expectations. These include whether people of the male sex can use women's rest rooms.

The thing is - if I asked the public the following: "Do you mind if men use women's rest rooms in public", I think I'd get a majority of people saying it's a not acceptable. But if I ask: "Do you mind if a man wearing make up and a dress use women's rest rooms", I get a different answer. Why would society as a whole not be resistant? Note, this isn't such a problem for trans men, because women are the fairer sex, and they fought hard for the rights and protections they have.

What I'm saying is, I don't see many people too bothered by how others want to live their lives. However, when we (the public) start to get demands on our own rights and norms, then it becomes an issue. You can't insist people go along with your choices, especially when they're out of the norm. Keep in mind, men living as women isn't a new thing, it's gone for forever. The difference now seems to be the surgery, the availability of drugs, and the internet bringing together like-minded folk.

I am also aware that most of the cost of the transgender movement seems to fall to women. Women must give up their right to privacy from the male sex when using a restroom. Women must give up a fair go at competitive sports, etc. Hell, women can't even be sure they don't live with males in female prisons.

All that said, I don't have anything against people who make the choice to live as though they were the opposite sex. Personally I'll treat them like everyone else. When I meet people, particularly strangers, I don't do a deep analysis of how they look, I react by instinct and initial impressions that may include nothing more than a casual glance. If the person strikes me as being of the male sex, then they're a "he". If the female sex, it's a "she". I'm not part of the trans movement, so I likely lack the awareness.

This may seem like stubbornness, or being rude, but I really don't see it that way. I'm just going about my life as I always have. Of course, this is underpinned by the belief that there are only two sexes, male and female, and your biological sex is determined in the womb. There's nothing you can do about it (excepting the very small minority of biological defects at birth).
 

Who_so_ever said:
People have the 'right' to disguise themselves as the opposite gender. They do not have the right to make me participate in their delusion.
Click to expand...

You know, this is one of those subjects where you have to tread carefully, because anything stated against the movement labels you a "hater".

Again I ask, you're a woman or child in a mall. You need the restroom. What are your expectations of privacy, and who from? I'd say that "men" would be pretty high on that list. It doesn't matter much if a man looks or dresses like a woman, does it?

Alternative bathrooms? I don't get it. Surely these people know that bathrooms are assigned on the basis of sex, our biological sex - male and female. They know which bathroom they should be using, but they want the right to decide for themselves. And once again, women must pay the price. I say that because, trans men using the men's room doesn't seem to be an issue.

To address your simple statement - who gets to decide if my daughter goes to the bathroom with men, or women? That I can feel safe for her, that her privacy is respected? Is it me? The mall? Just about anyone else? Why do the majority of women have to accept that a small minority of men (trans) get to use their privilege out of some entitlement? Since when is a flimsy door enough separation, and if it is - then why has there ever been a separation of bathrooms?
 

VaughanJB said:
The thing is, if I don't know you, I don't know you. I don't know if you're going to a fancy dress party or this is your normal attire. I do know that if someone addressed me as "her", it wouldn't bring my world crashing down. I'd always try and be polite, but it has to make sense to my worldview and life experience.

This is the issue. A trans woman has chosen to step out the norm, and to present themselves as the opposite sex. That's their choice, and they are entitled to make it. They should not be stopped or prevented from making that decision for themselves. However, along with that they're asking everyone else to buy into it, and to change their own expectations. These include whether people of the male sex can use women's rest rooms.

The thing is - if I asked the public the following: "Do you mind if men use women's rest rooms in public", I think I'd get a majority of people saying it's a not acceptable. But if I ask: "Do you mind if a man wearing make up and a dress use women's rest rooms", I get a different answer. Why would society as a whole not be resistant? Note, this isn't such a problem for trans men, because women are the fairer sex, and they fought hard for the rights and protections they have.

What I'm saying is, I don't see many people too bothered by how others want to live their lives. However, when we (the public) start to get demands on our own rights and norms, then it becomes an issue. You can't insist people go along with your choices, especially when they're out of the norm. Keep in mind, men living as women isn't a new thing, it's gone for forever. The difference now seems to be the surgery, the availability of drugs, and the internet bringing together like-minded folk.

I am also aware that most of the cost of the transgender movement seems to fall to women. Women must give up their right to privacy from the male sex when using a restroom. Women must give up a fair go at competitive sports, etc. Hell, women can't even be sure they don't live with males in female prisons.

All that said, I don't have anything against people who make the choice to live as though they were the opposite sex. Personally I'll treat them like everyone else. When I meet people, particularly strangers, I don't do a deep analysis of how they look, I react by instinct and initial impressions that may include nothing more than a casual glance. If the person strikes me as being of the male sex, then they're a "he". If the female sex, it's a "she". I'm not part of the trans movement, so I likely lack the awareness.

This may seem like stubbornness, or being rude, but I really don't see it that way. I'm just going about my life as I always have. Of course, this is underpinned by the belief that there are only two sexes, male and female, and your biological sex is determined in the womb. There's nothing you can do about it (excepting the very small minority of biological defects at birth).
Click to expand...
In my opinion this is one of the best comments of this thread.
 
VaughanJB said:
You know, this is one of those subjects where you have to tread carefully, because anything stated against the movement labels you a "hater".
Click to expand...
I'm not constrained by PC junk. And if someone is idiotic enough to consider what I said "hate", well they have major issues within themselves to worry about.
 
VaughanJB said:
The thing is, if I don't know you, I don't know you. I don't know if you're going to a fancy dress party or this is your normal attire. I do know that if someone addressed me as "her", it wouldn't bring my world crashing down. I'd always try and be polite, but it has to make sense to my worldview and life experience.
Click to expand...

of course. so we make mistakes - I m sure most of us wouldn't be upset if someone addressed us accidentally as opposite gender when they dont know or lack awareness - but that is different to stubbornly refusing to call somebody by the gender they have transitioned to when we do know.

nobody agreed women must give up their rights in sports - we all understand biological advantage and accept that is unfair. Nobody argued otherwise.

And calling transitioning 'pretending' or 'disguising' or 'delusional' is minimising and dismissing the real committment people make if they feel this way

sure we don't have to respect that - but I would like to think most of us would try to.


VaughanJB said:
Keep in mind, men living as women isn't a new thing, it's gone for forever. The difference now seems to be the surgery, the availability of drugs, and the internet bringing together like-minded folk.
Click to expand...

yes exactly.
It isnt the modern woke or whatever thing people are claiming - there have always been people who felt this way - and it would have been very isolating and lonely.
Thanks t o modern medicine and surgery, people have the chance to make their wish more of a reality - not to just socially live as opposite sex whilst looking like a freak because it couldnt be realistic.
and yes, thanks to the internet, people are not so isolated and do have an opportunity to connect to others feeling the same way.
 
A few years ago we heard a great deal about the epidemic of rape on US college campuses. That crisis (which was largely manufactured) faded. Now we have trans people being denied rights, although no one is sure what those rights are.

It will be interesting to see if this is still a big deal in ten years. I don't think it will be.
 
Who_so_ever said:
I'm not constrained by PC junk. And if someone is idiotic enough to consider what I said "hate", well they have major issues within themselves to worry about.
Click to expand...

Well, sometimes "PC junk" is merely being polite, you know? I just think that one must tread carefully when expressing views on such topics - especially in a forum where we hold respect for each other - as it's very easy to inadvertent offend.

January said:
nobody agreed women must give up their rights in sports - we all understand biological advantage and accept that is unfair. Nobody argued otherwise.
Click to expand...

By "we all", do you mean the general public? Only a lot of sports don't seem to know the difference, and there are examples where it's not just about strength and stamina. For example, Darts is a popular sport in the UK. There is a male and female circuit. When it comes to the playing of the sport (run at the professional level by the Professional Darts Corp), the mechanics of it, and the rule set, there is no relevant biological differences between men and women. Yet there are two sets of competitions.

Reasons for this are many, including funding and arguments about spatial awareness etc. Whatever the legitimacy, the fact remains, there are both men, and women competitions. So recently a competition for women was held, and it was won by, you guessed it, a trans woman.

Now, what to make of this? Physically, when playing darts, there should be no difference between men and women. Darts isn't a game of strength, for example. Traditionally though, there has been two circuits. A man wins the men's circuit each year (becomes champion) and a woman win's the female title. It's a chance for a woman to achieve something in what was, and still is, a male dominated sport. A way to celebrate the best skilled woman.

Well, now that's gone. Women in Darts have to compete with both biological male, AND biological females. Again, I think, women pay the price, since men are not affected by this at all.

The fact is, the rules in any given sport are made by the relevant governing body - so while society might well accept the differences between a man and a woman, it is not a given that a sport will follow suit. Darts, clearly, is one of them.

January said:
And calling transitioning 'pretending' or 'disguising' or 'delusional' is minimising and dismissing the real committment people make if they feel this way
sure we don't have to respect that - but I would like to think most of us would try to.
Click to expand...

Wow, this is a toughie, imo. I won't pretend to understand why someone makes such a choice. I've heard some trans people talk, and explain, but truly it's not something I can relate to. I've always loved the female form, but I've never felt like I wanted to be one. So it's all a bit of a mystery to me.

But a trans woman IS a biological male. And if that male person is presenting as a woman, how is that not disguising who they truly are? And if they insist they're the opposite sex to which they were biologically assigned, then when is that not a delusion of some kind? I mean, you can't be what you're not.

But I understand, such a thought process might offend, and might come across as insulting. So there's that. But given my views and the basics of biology, I doubt any trans person would be able to change my mind on the topic. Perhaps they'll have to wait until all us old gits die. :D
 
VaughanJB said:
Well, sometimes "PC junk" is merely being polite, you know? I just think that one must tread carefully when expressing views on such topics - especially in a forum where we hold respect for each other - as it's very easy to inadvertent offend.
Click to expand...
I can be polite when treated that way. But calling something what it is, is not disrespectful. It's truth. :)
 
Play boy/girl, girl/boy and ring of the roses with it but at an age you understand or think you understand what you are doing and can pay for it.

It is getting long in the tooth to read about teachers pushing agendas, parents having no say so as courts make their decisions, teenagers discovering major medical issues and finding that the decision was wrong. Who decides if a convicted felon gets surgery and therapy? Who pays for all these follies?
 
I think it would be great to just live and let live.

What I see in the pronoun fight or insistence to be in women's bathroom or locker rooms is more abut them wanting attention. Many like to be upset and make a big deal about someone saying " mam or sir. " This is to try to make a scene. It is not about the accidental missed pronoun it is attention seeking behavior. The bathroom situation in many places ( in US) is simple use the single bathroom in many public places deemed as either family or disabled restroom.

The sports thing is just a fact that it is unfair and taking records or awards and room on a team or scholarships from women. If sports is something they feel they must do ......then let them compete in single person sports like track but their time is for their own self esteem but do not count for medals or placement in any competition. That will not be enough because it is about making a scene and calling attention to themselves it is not about their self esteem it is about pushing their choice on to others ......and some seem to be unhappy unless they offend others.
Unfortunately like everything else a few bad examples made this worse then it ever had to be.
 
Jeni said:
I think it would be great to just live and let live.

What I see in the pronoun fight or insistence to be in women's bathroom or locker rooms is more abut them wanting attention. Many like to be upset and make a big deal about someone saying " mam or sir. " This is to try to make a scene. It is not about the accidental missed pronoun it is attention seeking behavior. The bathroom situation in many places ( in US) is simple use the single bathroom in many public places deemed as either family or disabled restroom.

The sports thing is just a fact that it is unfair and taking records or awards and room on a team or scholarships from women. If sports is something they feel they must do ......then let them compete in single person sports like track but their time is for their own self esteem but do not count for medals or placement in any competition. That will not be enough because it is about making a scene and calling attention to themselves it is not about their self esteem it is about pushing their choice on to others ......and some seem to be unhappy unless they offend others.
Unfortunately like everything else a few bad examples made this worse then it ever had to be.
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
Irishdude said:
A few years ago we heard a great deal about the epidemic of rape on US college campuses. That crisis (which was largely manufactured) faded. Now we have trans people being denied rights, although no one is sure what those rights are.

It will be interesting to see if this is still a big deal in ten years. I don't think it will be.
Click to expand...
Manufactured? Not a great deal?
And please let us not forget the sexual assaults ending in homocide.
What do you need to know about sexual assault on college campuses?
 
astralcat said:
You are born EITHER a male or a female – born with male reproductive organs that produce sperm or born with reproductive organs that produce eggs. Granted there are isolated exceptions where a child may be born with a ******* malformation but internally they are still either male or female.

Surgeries can change your gender outwardly but that is all they can do. Technically you are still born either male or female – that is your biological sex. As for transgender males competing in women’s sports, they will have more muscle strength- I don’t know if this diminishes over time due to hormone therapy. What a conundrum. In one way, transgenders should be integrated and allowed to live their lives as they choose without bullying or made to feel inferior – on the other hand, it really does affect sports and is unfair to women athletes.
Click to expand...
Again, as someone mentioned earlier, there are cases where babies and adolescents poses both sex gonads. However, usually, corrective surgery will make one sex prominent by the person's teen years. I think these issues should apply to 18 and over only and if there's a medical reason for it, the person will most likely have one or the other gender medically prominent by the time they're an adult with the problem settled.

However, if you're an adult who chooses to switch sides ... well, all the power to ya, but, IMO those people shouldn't be involved in professional sporting competitions.

Nevertheless, this is a difficult and not-so-easy topic for one big reason -- let's not forget there's 8 billion of us now on Earth (only 2 billion of us 100 years ago). It's approximated that we finally crossed into a pop of over 1billiion in 1804. There's 2 billion more humans (and possibly even new gender malformations or chromosomal anomalies) in the next 30 or so years.

In 1987, we reached a global population of 5 billion and will double that number to 10 billion people on Earth by 2060 (less than 100 years later). That's an incredible amount of people and differentiation potential. Just trying to keep things in perspective.
 
VaughanJB said:
By "we all", do you mean the general public
Click to expand...

No - by we all I meant we all in this thread.

Nobody was denying biological advantage or saying trans women should be able to compete in women's sport. You seem to be arguing a point on which nobody disagreed.
 
old4joe said:
Again, as someone mentioned earlier, there are cases where babies and adolescents poses both sex gonads. However, usually, corrective surgery will make one sex prominent by the person's teen years. I think these issues should apply to 18 and over only and if there's a medical reason for it
Click to expand...

I have been careful to acknowledge those born with genetic abnormalities. On the other hand, let's not pretend that the issue we're talking about here is about them. They are people who come into this work with a physical issue, and that issue needs addressing. I actually think it would do more harm to not treat them as early as possible, it would cause more psychological problems if you made them wait until they were 18.

It is those that elect to have transition surgery through purely psychological issues that are the issue. And not even that, but how we as the general populace react to the situation. Let's be honest, for most of us this is purely an intellectual exercise. I don't (knowingly) know any transsexual people, so the argument is always somewhat abstract.

This also has a wider context. For example, take the case of Martina Adam (now with a changed name of Malaika Kubwa). Martina was born, and lived, as a white woman. Then, at the age of 37 years, she decided to begin injecting a course of Melanotan. This, in effect, darkened her skin to the extent that she passes for being an African American. This move is permanent and cannot be changed, she can never present as a white woman again.

So - is she black, or white? If repatriation were a thing, would she qualify? If not, why not? Should she come under the various privileges afforded people of color? How is she seen under, for example, the Civil Rights Act?

Where does this blurring of genetics end?
 
VaughanJB said:
I have been careful to acknowledge those born with genetic abnormalities. On the other hand, let's not pretend that the issue we're talking about here is about them. They are people who come into this work with a physical issue, and that issue needs addressing. I actually think it would do more harm to not treat them as early as possible, it would cause more psychological problems if you made them wait until they were 18.

It is those that elect to have transition surgery through purely psychological issues that are the issue. And not even that, but how we as the general populace react to the situation. Let's be honest, for most of us this is purely an intellectual exercise. I don't (knowingly) know any transsexual people, so the argument is always somewhat abstract.

This also has a wider context. For example, take the case of Martina Adam (now with a changed name of Malaika Kubwa). Martina was born, and lived, as a white woman. Then, at the age of 37 years, she decided to begin injecting a course of Melanotan. This, in effect, darkened her skin to the extent that she passes for being an African American. This move is permanent and cannot be changed, she can never present as a white woman again.

So - is she black, or white? If repatriation were a thing, would she qualify? If not, why not? Should she come under the various privileges afforded people of color? How is she seen under, for example, the Civil Rights Act?

Where does this blurring of genetics end?
Click to expand...
I had never heard of Martina Adam. I googled. That individual has a whole lot of issues that need dealt with.....
 
VaughanJB said:
Wow, this is a toughie, imo. I won't pretend to understand why someone makes such a choice. I've heard some trans people talk, and explain, but truly it's not something I can relate to. I've always loved the female form, but I've never felt like I wanted to be one. So it's all a bit of a mystery to me.

But a trans woman IS a biological male. And if that male person is presenting as a woman, how is that not disguising who they truly are? And if they insist they're the opposite sex to which they were biologically assigned, then when is that not a delusion of some kind? I mean, you can't be what you're not.

But I understand, such a thought process might offend, and might come across as insulting. So there's that. But given my views and the basics of biology, I doubt any trans person would be able to change my mind on the topic. Perhaps they'll have to wait until all us old gits die. :D
Click to expand...

I dont understand or relate to it either - but it isnt about me. I can respect how other people feel about something without personally relating to it.
yes a trans person is biologically their birth sex. ( did anyone dispute that?)
But it isn't that hard to understand some people feel they don't belong in their birth gender.If people feel committed enough about that to transition to opposite gender I don't see that as disguise or pretending or delusion or being what you are not. Yes, those words to describe it do come across as a bit insulting or offensive or dismissive - I'm glad you can see that.
I see it as becoming, as far as is medically/ surgically/ socially possible the opposite gender to that you were born as.
I don't think it is that hard to respect that and address the person as they wish to be addressed
 
VaughanJB said:
Let's be honest, for most of us this is purely an intellectual exercise. I don't (knowingly) know any transsexual people, so the argument is always somewhat abstract.
Click to expand...

Perhaps that is the problem - you are basing your view on extreme examples portrayed in the media and not on ordinary people who have transitioned without fanfare or doing the attention seeking stuff some posters seem to think is represntative of all transgender people.
I know transgendered people are relatively rare - but am surprised you have not met any at all in real life. Or perhaps you have and didn't realise it, who knows.
 
January said:
Perhaps that is the problem - you are basing your view on extreme examples portrayed in the media and not on ordinary people who have transitioned without fanfare or doing the attention seeking stuff some posters seem to think is represntative of all transgender people.
I know transgendered people are relatively rare - but am surprised you have not met any at all in real life. Or perhaps you have and didn't realise it, who knows.
Click to expand...
I can still just about count on the fingers (and thumb) of one hand the number of trans people I've ever met. Four of those five were through science fiction fandom.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top