Non believers

That is the really difficult bit, isn't it Ina?
when somebody you love dies, you HAVE to believe that you will meet again, or that they are happy, or with their relations; or something...to make any sense of it at all.
it is all you can hang on to...
 

  • Like
Reactions: Ina
Vivjen said:
That is the really difficult bit, isn't it Ina?
when somebody you love dies, you HAVE to believe that you will meet again, or that they are happy, or with their relations; or something...to make any sense of it at all.
it is all you can hang on to...
Click to expand...

I have no wish to meet anyone in an afterlife, however fond I might be of them down here. I hope when I die I cease to be.
 
I completely agree with you, Rkunshaw and Vivjen. There has never been a moment in my dealings with dramatic events that it seemed rational or a helpful idea to me to pray or to expect any kind of magicked solution to the existing problem.



 

I think a parody of Willy Nelson's piece on all the girls I've loved b4 may fit here.

:confused:I believe in one less god than you perhaps.


A Thousand gods and yet!


Willy Gets It Right

To all the gods we've loved before
Who led us in and out with war
Too bad they came along
So I dedicate this song
To all the gods we've purged before

To all those gods we once obsessed
And may I say they failed the test
In helping us to grow
It cost a lot we know
Serving all the gods we've had before

The winds of change are always blowing
And every time they try to stay
The winds of time continue blowing
And they just carry more gods away

To all the gods that cost loved one's lives
Of parents, children and our wives
I'm sad they came and went
I dedicate this lament
To all the gods we've served before

To all the gods who shared with thee
And caused such painful ecstasy
They live within our past
Leave history aghast
Those awful gods we loved before

The winds of truth are always blowing
And every time a god tries to stay
The winds of change religiously blowing
Just carry another god away

To all the gods we've worshiped before
Who caused persecution and war
We devoutly served
Got just what we deserved ?
From all the gods we've worshiped before

To all the gods we've praised before
Who shared with us their blood and gore
We're sad that man created
So many now belated
Of all thousand gods we've served before



By Pooper



​
 
I was raised by Christian parents, and have prayed about everything all of my life. When I was younger, I simply believed everything they taught me at church, and didn't question the things that didn't make sense. I assumed that it was just my lack of understanding.
Now, I am questioning the things in the Bible that don't seem right to me, and also the things I was taught at church.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that this world, and the whole universe was created somehow, and didn't just happen to come into being.
I read a book called Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye, and he explains the development of humanity in a way that seems to me fits in with the Bible, and also the other early accounts of the creation of the world.
He has a video on youtube called "everything you know is wrong" that explains (with pictures) the things in the book.

I have had answers to prayers in my life, and just plain times that I should not have survived; and although not all of my prayers are answered (at least not the way I was praying for), I still believe there is some kind of a Divine Power, and I also believe that the "universal consciousness" idea works, and the Law of Attraction.

Praying does no harm, in any case, and in a lot of cases; it seems to make a whole lot of difference; and I will continue to believe and to pray.
 
Before my DH died but was still in the hospital, I was so frantic that I called our parish priest in the town we'd just moved from...800 miles away...and at 2 am and asked him what to do. We knew no one in the town we'd moved to, he was in University of Kentucky hospital 40 miles from there, I just didn't know where to turn. Our priest first of all looked up the phone number for the priest at the Newman Center at the University of Kentucky, then said I should remember to pray "THY will be done" not "MY will be done". I called. He was there within minutes and brought with him so much comfort.

I think we often pray for what WE want forgetting to pray for a resolution instead, and being at peace with whatever that resolution may be.

I haven't been a practicing Catholic for many, many years and feel more that the Church left me rather than the other way around, but the early religious education never leaves.
 
I believe that way down deep in our soul, we all want to believe that there is a Power greater than ourselves. That when we die, we don't cease to exist. Well, we don't.

Everything that existed in the beginning of this universe still exists. Everything. Nothing that didn't exist at the beginning has been added. Not one iota. That's a scientific fact.

It may have changed forms, but in some form, it still exists. Your soul exists as surely as the wind on your face or the warmth of the sun on your skin. When this body is old, sick and worn out and your soul leaves it, it will not cease to exist. Does it go to heaven? Does it become reincarnated? What happens to it? I don't know. I do know that when I leave this life, I will go on to live again.

I am not a Christian in the usual sense of the word. I do believe in the Creator. I do believe that Christ was sent by the Creator to teach us a better way to live. I believe that His message has been twisted by men to suit their purposes.

I also don't know why He doesn't just turn the whole thing to ashes; as big a mess as we have made of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ina
As a former airline pilot, I said a prayer before every flight and a little "Thank You" when we were at the gate.
 
Last edited:
As a passenger, I prepare myself for death before every take off, then in a happy and peaceful state of mind I settle in to enjoy the flight. If the plane falls out of the sky, then so be it. I am ready. That is one of the benefits of prayer.
 
Prayer CAN hurt if you believe in it so strongly that you refuse to take physical action. It can hurt your children when you pray to God that He stops their internal bleeding while you refuse to take them to the hospital.

Prayer can offer false security and heightened - and unfulfilled - expectations.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Agreed but it is the mindset that is the problem. That is why doubt is an important element of faith.
Click to expand...

Could you explain that, please? I would think that they are mutually exclusive ... don't most of the fire-and-brimstone preachers come down heavily on doubt? Even your everyday pastor - "God knows you doubt him, that's why He hasn't answered your prayers" ...
 
Well, first of all Sifuphil, I don't give any time to fire and brimstone preachers and if anyone tries to tell me that my faith is lacking because I don't believe everything in the Bible is to be interpreted literally or that I must take the preacher's word regarding the meaning, then I dismiss them as puerile and ignorant. If we are to accept that somehow God is present in the evolutionary process, then all of the characteristics of humanity are important and necessary, including doubt. It is the consequence of an active and inquiring mind. Why give humanity intelligence but forbid us to exercise it?

Faith is the triumph of trust over doubt. Faith is not only a Christian concept. Every human places their faith somewhere. A child places his faith in his father when he leaps into the swimming pool, trusting that his waiting father will not let him drown, even though he may be afraid of the water. Without the fear and the doubt, there is no faith.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Why give humanity intelligence but forbid us to exercise it?
Click to expand...

Because it might contradict faith?

Or was that a rhetorical question?

Faith is the triumph of trust over doubt. Faith is not only a Christian concept. Every human places their faith somewhere. A child places his faith in his father when he leaps into the swimming pool, trusting that his waiting father will not let him drown, even though he may be afraid of the water. Without the fear and the doubt, there is no faith.
Click to expand...

That last line is interesting - a very Yin/Yang construct ...

To me and my way of believing, faith is a very fragile concept. It is often based upon nothing more than desire, fear or hearsay, and that seems a dubious way of living one's life. Now if that faith is earned - if your prayers are answered or your father catches you when you go underwater for the third time - then yes, faith can be good thing.

But if your prayers remain unanswered or Dad lets you sink to the bottom of the pool then faith is a poor substitute for action.
 
Some actions require a lot of faith. Lack of action usually requires very little faith.
Do not conflate faith and belief. They are different concepts.

Additional thought - have you seen the third Indiana Jones movie?

There is a scene where Indiana has to step out in faith in order to save his father who is dying of a gun shot wound. He must acquire the legendary cup of Christ by passing three tests. His father is a believer in the Grail and has a Grail diary with important information in it.

The third test requires a leap of faith to cross a seemingly bottomless chasm. Indi is hesitant to believe in the invisible bridge illustrated in his father's diary. He tests its reality by throwing pebbles in front of him and sees that the bridge does seem to exist, but is it an illusion, does it go all the way across, will it support his weight? These things he does not know for sure but he cannot go back, so he steps out in faith and ultimately reaches the other side relatively easily. The diary helped him to pass the first two tests although things could have gone very badly and very nearly did. Faith is not a guarantee of a smooth life. It is what fortifies when life is very difficult.

Finally, faith is developmental in the same way that cognition and morality are developmental. The child leaping into his father's arms exhibits a very simple level of faith development. The person who simultaneously carries doubt and disbelief has moved to a higher stage where paradox and complexity can be accommodated. This is why someone may say "I am an atheist" yet still enter into prayer as a meaningful exercise without being a hypocrite.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
Some actions require a lot of faith. Lack of action usually requires very little faith.
Do not conflate faith and belief. They are different concepts.
Click to expand...

Alan Watts in his The Wisdom of Insecurity had written:

We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because, in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown. Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is not self-deception.
Click to expand...

Now, while I admire and respect Watts for his work on opening up Eastern thought to Westerners, I have to disagree with him here. He appears to make faith the good guy, when in reality it is faith that so often derails the train. If faith were indeed an "unreserved opening of the mind" then I could happily talk religion and spirituality with the faithful with no opposition or argument.

Sadly this is not the case.
 
The only fire and brimstone preacher I ever heard was when I went to revival when I was 8 or 9 years old. I know for sure I'm going to heaven because he scared the hell out of me. :D

I don't believe that hell exists. Most churches now are saying hell is eternal separation from God. I'm not trying to convert anybody, I'm like the Old Hippy, I'm just trying real hard to adjust. :D If you are an atheist, I'm sure you have good reasons for believing that way. For me, I have had too many of my prayers answered to doubt.
 
Believe me.

I don't believe in hell,heaven, a god,, angels, fairies,leprechauns,ghosts,or to some degree, :playful: truly honest politicians, lawyers or used car dealers.
 

Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top