Non believers

What?????? You mean you've never seen fairies dancing in the full moonlight??? You poor dear!
 

Dame Warrigal said:
Additional thought - have you seen the third Indiana Jones movie?
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A long time ago - I'll have to go by your scene-setting ...

There is a scene where Indiana has to step out in faith in order to save his father who is dying of a gun shot wound. He must acquire the legendary cup of Christ by passing three tests. His father is a believer in the Grail and has a Grail diary with important information in it.

The third test requires a leap of faith to cross a seemingly bottomless chasm. Indi is hesitant to believe in the invisible bridge illustrated in his father's diary. He tests its reality by throwing pebbles in front of him and sees that the bridge does seem to exist, but is it an illusion, does it go all the way across, will it support his weight?
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In the movie Wanted the assassins can curve bullets around corners and obstacles. In The Matrix there are dozens of feats of physical agility that aren't possible. The hundreds of chop-socky martial arts films I watched as a teenager regularly featured fantastic moves that could never be performed by mere humans.

Indiana Jones is just another movie.


These things he does not know for sure but he cannot go back, so he steps out in faith and ultimately reaches the other side relatively easily. The diary helped him to pass the first two tests although things could have gone very badly and very nearly did. Faith is not a guarantee of a smooth life. It is what fortifies when life is very difficult.
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If there was indeed no turning back as you say then whether or not he had faith is a moot point - he HAD to do what he did. Believing a supernatural force is assisting you isn't proof that God exists - it's merely a visualization technique, thousands of which can be found that do NOT feature any omnipotent beings but merely serve as a means of gaining internal fortitude.

Now if you phrased it as:

"Faith is a way of surviving in life when you have no internal strength of your own to call upon"

... then I would agree.

Finally, faith is developmental in the same way that cognition and morality are developmental. The child leaping into his father's arms exhibits a very simple level of faith development. The person who simultaneously carries doubt and disbelief has moved to a higher stage where paradox and complexity can be accommodated. This is why someone may say "I am an atheist" yet still enter into prayer as a meaningful exercise without being a hypocrite.
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A child jumping into his father's arms HAS no other knowledge or experience.

It's like playing roulette. You put $10,000 down on double-o and let the wheel spin. If the number comes up you can attribute it to faith, faith that the number would come up. If it fails to come up then it is seen as either a lack of faith or going against the will of God. Either way it is quickly forgotten, as it is not supportive of the faith-based viewpoint.

Cognition is a scientific process, not a trial-and-error one where you hope something will or will not happen. Morality is simply a group of socially-accepted-and-approved rules of behavior, again, not having anything to do with faith.

An atheist, a stone-cold dyed-in-the-wool non-believer of preternatural beings, would not pray - ever. They ARE being hypocritical because they are hedging their bets.
 
In response to Sifuphil :-

Indiana Jones is just another movie.

I would say just another story. Stories are useful to illustrate ideas. In many ways that is their purpose. Whether you agree or disagree with the idea or not doesn't matter.

If there was indeed no turning back as you say then whether or not he had faith is a moot point - he HAD to do what he did. Believing a supernatural force is assisting you isn't proof that God exists - it's merely a visualization technique, thousands of which can be found that do NOT feature any omnipotent beings but merely serve as a means of gaining internal fortitude.

Nothing ever 'proves' that God exists. Personal experience is not only convincing but transformative. Rather than proof, the transformation is evidence that can be observed. We can always argue about the cause but the transformed is usually in no doubt about it.

Visualisation techniques are useful, with or without a concept of a deity. Does the tree in the forest fall if I don't witness the event? Does it fall if someone else sees it and tells me about it? Is the only witness to be believed oneself? What are you visualising right now and is it based on your personal experiences?

Now if you phrased it as:

"Faith is a way of surviving in life when you have no internal strength of your own to call upon"

... then I would agree.

Well put.

A child jumping into his father's arms HAS no other knowledge or experience.

The child has intuitive faith in the father. He does not reason the situation. He may, like my son, be too afraid of the water to make the jump. In this case intuitive fear overcomes intuitive faith.

It's like playing roulette. You put $10,000 down on double-o and let the wheel spin. If the number comes up you can attribute it to faith, faith that the number would come up. If it fails to come up then it is seen as either a lack of faith or going against the will of God. Either way it is quickly forgotten, as it is not supportive of the faith-based viewpoint.

My brother-in-law won $1,000,000 in Lotto. At the time he was deeply in debt and had failed in his third or fourth business. He prayed, bought a quickpick ticket and it won. He attributes it to prayer. I don't. It was co-incidence. His encounter with the divine has had no transformative effect on his life other than the absence of debt. If that is all God is for, what is the point?

Cognition is a scientific process, not a trial-and-error one where you hope something will or will not happen. Morality is simply a group of socially-accepted-and-approved rules of behavior, again, not having anything to do with faith.

An atheist, a stone-cold dyed-in-the-wool non-believer of preternatural beings, would not pray - ever. They ARE being hypocritical because they are hedging their bets.

When I was an atheist I would not, could not, pray. I was never hypocritical but I was stubborn and defiant. To pray would have been to admit error. I was quite certain that I was right. Now I am less certain about many things.
 
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The deity would be a sicko if it granted someone's wish to win the lottery, but denied help for people in dire circumstances like those who are starving!
 
I was always thrown out of religious instruction at school..I asked too many questions..such as..Miss..Mary was married to Joseph and yet was impregnated by God..isn't that adultery??

Get out...
 
We used to get up to the same capers. That's what teens do.
We didn't do it to cute students from the theological college though.
At an all girls school with an all female staff, a cute proto-minister was the best we had to look forward to.
 
Dame Warrigal said:
We used to get up to the same capers. That's what teens do.
We didn't do it to cute students from the theological college though.
At an all girls school with an all female staff, a cute proto-minister was the best we had to look forward to.
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Ours was an all female school...no men allowed..It was Catholic run by nuns..I remember one day a trip out to the zoo..it must have been Spring or something..because most of the animals were um..''excited''

Lions..were humping..so were the water buffalo..the wolves were at it..I kept tittering..(country girl!)..in desperation we were taken to the insect house..and even the insects were at it..

I had so many slaps round the head that my hair was standing upright by the time we got out of the zoo..

With cries of ''Dirty Girl!!''..:D
 
Twixie said:
I was always thrown out of religious instruction at school..I asked too many questions..such as..Miss..Mary was married to Joseph and yet was impregnated by God..isn't that adultery??

Get out...
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According to the Bible Mary wasn't married to Joseph at the time of her conception, just betrothed. Why do some Christians have a problem with women getting having sex and getting pregnant without a ring on their finger, when Mary who is likely to have been a young girl at the time, was pregnant before marrying Joseph. I suspect the 'deity wot done it' scenario was concocted as an excuse to cover up the unfortunate early conception of Jesus, by Joseph or another.
 
Totally agree on the unmarried, very young and vulnerable pregnant girl aspect of the birth narratives. However, very little within the narratives is plausible. Every story element is symbolic rather than historical.
 
Twixie said:
... With cries of ''Dirty Girl!!''..:D
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Being public school attendees, we neighborhood guys were always on the lookout for the "Dirty Girl" label - it was like a seal of approval to us. ;)

There is a TV sitcom starting up this fall here in the states- Jane The Virgin. The premise?

Set in Miami, the series will detail the surprising and unforeseen events that take place in the life of Jane Villanueva, a hard-working, religious young Latina woman whose family tradition and a vow to save her virginity until her marriage to a detective is shattered when a doctor accidentally artificially inseminates her by mistake during a checkup. And to make matters worse, the biological donor is a married man, a former playboy and cancer survivor who is not only the new owner of the hotel where Jane works, but was also her former teenage crush.
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Wiki

The Biblical version of immaculate conception is almost easy to understand compared to that ...
 
Hi Ina,
Good point you brought up. I think you believe that there is a Force or sorts, but are too much of thinker to want to identify with the type of god that humans have perpetrated.... and I feel the same way. I know that there is an All That Is... a great force...even SCIENCE proves that... and quantum physics aligns with metaphysical spirituality very nicely.
When a person 'starts praying' you are reaching out for something that seems beyond your ability to cope or handle it...but...it STILL is a part of Who You Are... I am a bit allergic to the word 'god' because it has gotten so SO very distorted and 'humanized to the lowest degree'... but, its all ok! :) Our 'beliefs' can vary and fluctuate... nothing wrong with that ... it only means we are MORE free (and free of dogma)...I think one of the WORST mistakes we can make is thinking we have to reach One Certain Conclusion and that will be The Truth. ALL truth is relative. To stay open is best. A friend of mine calls herself a Possibilian... she says she is open to whatever happens to intrigue her and draw her attention. I like that! :love_heart:
 
Bettyann, I like your friend's possibilialn idea. But I like they way you put it best. I've never been comfortable using the "god" word. The closest I get to that is the creater. (not creator) Something brought everything about, but somewhere inside a little voice says, "it wasn't us". I have no scientific background, so I let those that do argue those points. I just know I'm here, and I don't give credit to anything or anybody on this little ball of minerals.
I'm not even sure we are worth more than a blade of grass, a bug, or even a kitten. I do know that I have some sort of communication going on inside with something, and it's been there since my earliest thoughts. I am communicating, and not just with myself.
:magnify:
 
I had Major British writers from a catholic nun in college. By the time she got through Paradise Lost, I was praying.
 
Sid said:
I don't.
I am not commanding I am pleading.
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Sorry, Sid. I was being very insensitive.

My thinking is that when it comes to prayer for someone who is dying we pray out of our anguish and want God to suspend the natural laws of life and death. We want a miracle on demand. Then when we don't get one we turn away in anger and disappointment because our plea for help wasn't granted. In that moment we are like a hurt child railing against a parent who doesn't respond to our wishes, for reasons we don't understand. Disappointment and sorrow is as much a feature of our existence as joy and hope. I don't understand why either but it is so, and it is part of what it means to be human.
 
Well, no matter what others in this forum feel, we will continue to "believe", trust in the Lord and pray. "To each their own" and this is "our own".
 
Ina,
why do you ask these survey like questions anyway? Do they have personal interest to you?

I have known many nonbelievers and none of them pray to God for any reason, that I know of.
Jokingly, I pray for a green light when I am driving! Atheists would be very insulted if you suggested
to them that they are hypocrites. Serious atheists snicker or are amused by people who think that
God or some being is listening to them and will do what they wish for.
 
Athos, I never thought of my questions as surveys.
My questions are in my head, and I have no one to discuss them with other than my friends on SF.
I never intended to upset anyone with them.
I have said that I'm an agnostic, I don't believe in man made religions. I do believe that there is a force or forces that brought about the universe.
I use the word "pray" very broadly. I don't know if those forces acknowledge me anymore than it does a blade of grass.
I have never called anyone except my father a hypocrite.
I have never prayed for a wish, nor have I prayed for a being to hear me.
Even when my son's died, I only "prayed" that they had what they need to go forward, if there was a place for them to go forward to.
If I have upset you, then I apologize.
 
I don't think of your thread questions as surveys at all Ina, they are very real and thoughtful. Although I was no longer interested in the Catholic religion at all in my teens, I was hit by a car, and actually found myself praying learned prayers in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. I think those are the things you mean, and it is true. I don't do that anymore, but I do send positive thoughts mentally, which may be considered 'prayer' by some. I enjoy all of your threads Ina, as they all are real thoughts that many of us have had in life. :love_heart:
 
Ina, I enjoy your threads also. You usually ask questions that make us think, or sometimes look at ourselves, or our beliefs.
Since this is a forum, people can respond to any thread that they are interested in; and I would assume that someone who was not interested in a thread like this, would simply post in another thread that they were interested in.
You always get a lot of answers to your threads, so obviously, they are enjoyed by many of us.

I think that it is up to each person to decide what they think and what they will believe. Sometimes, I find something that I will study and think about that may change how I understand life, and God.
As a Christian, I (and probably many others) was raised that it was our greatest mission in life "to win souls for Christ". But most of the things that people do, like the hell-warnings on the side of a van, only push people further away from religion of any kind. Even parents who are only trying to raise their children to be the kind of person they think is right, often have the opposite effect.
It is no wonder that we have so many people who do not want to have anything to do with organized religion, and I can't say that I blame them.

However, actual studies have been done about prayer, and it does affect us when we pray. It can change our bodies, and even cause them to heal.
Art Bell had people listening to his program one night, all thinking a positive thought (forgot exactly what it was) and it actually was reading the change in vibrations on some kind of a meter that the researcher had .
So, I think that even if a person does not believe in God, it still helps to think positive thoughts.

I also agree with what Sifu Phil said, that it is not a good thing to just pray for a person to be healed, and not take them to the hospital. That is kind of like sitting on the railroad track and then asking God to not let a train come by and hit you.
 

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