Passenger dragged off Plane

aeron said:
In view of the risk of Islamic terrorism and aircraft being prime targets IMO the actions taken were entirely appropriate. The overbooked story to him could quite possibly have been a way to get him off with least fuse.

He was requested to disembark. He refused. He was made to disembark and resisted. He was removed using reasonable force in that he was not shot on the spot which would not have been unreasonable given that he could have been carrying a device of some sort on a crowded aircraft.
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Unfortunately that is the kind of time we are living in, no fly lists are not fail proof. Bottom line confrontation with police doing their job usually doesn't well, except in this case since a lawsuit will probably net him major bucks.

That brings up a whole other area. At age 69 how many years of earning against potential lawsuit win is fair compensation for his injuries?

Punitive is supposed to remedy what took place. How likely is it that this exact same scenario will happen again?
 

And now, United has pulled another public relations goof! Did anyone else see that story about the couple flying to their wedding who were thrown off a United flight because when they discovered a passenger sleeping across their seats, they moved up to vacant seats in a more expensive part of the airplane?

It was going to be a destination wedding in Costa Rica. (They made it after all, on a different flight.) The bride's father remarked that they were worried about problems coming up in Costa Rica. They never expected the problems to begin in Houston!
 

The full story shows a slightly different picture. They tried to give themselves an upgrade and it was for that they were required to get off. Quite right too.
 
Sadly, in these times and with any country, every airline passenger must be where they are supposed to be, no changing, no guessing.

I am surprised if they don't have to indicate somehow when they are in the toilet. If they don't, they should. Everyone on a plane should be accounted for at all times.
 
Butterfly said:
What I was wondering is that if the airline loses money on no-shows. Back when I used to fly stand-by a lot (military dependent), if a seat opened up it was usually because of a no-show. I never had to wait very long for a seat. That was back in the 70s, though and things have changed a lot, sadly. Flying was a fun experience then, instead of a headache like it is now.I know that's not the airlines' fault, but the fault of the state of the world now with terrorists and bombs, but the fun has pretty much gone out of it. Last time I flew, it was about as much fun as a root canal.
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I can only speak for United. SOP was to over-book x number of seats, depending on the size of the aircraft. If they over-book, the passenger receives a ticket without a seat number. Normally, if a passenger fails to show or cancel, they do not receive a refund or credit, unless their ticket class states otherwise. If a passenger calls and cancels and the flight is sold out, their seat is assigned to a passenger flying standby.

Flying standby or being bumped is a passenger's nightmare. Because I fly standby, I am one of those passengers. Just because I am a former employee, I do not get any special treatment. My wife and I go to the airport and to the correct gate for our flight, check in as standbys and if we get seats, great and if we don't, we wait until the next flight. It's only fair that because we fly for free that we are treated like anyone else. I have no issue with this policy because I know and have agreed to follow the rules.
 
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I once, unknowingly, got bumped into first class, I say unknowingly because it was my first time flying, so imagine my surprise when I came back home on regular class. Still way back then, it was still a nice experience even in standard seating, but oh the roominess, treats and service in first class was so fun. :D
 
oldman said:
I can only speak for United. SOP was to over-book x number of seats, depending on the size of the aircraft. If they over-book, the passenger receives a ticket without a seat number. Normally, if a passenger fails to show or cancel, they do not receive a refund or credit, unless their ticket class states otherwise. If a passenger calls and cancels and the flight is sold out, their seat is assigned to a passenger flying standby.

Flying standby or being bumped is a passenger's nightmare. Because I fly standby, I am one of those passengers. Just because I am a former employee, I do not get any special treatment. My wife and I go to the airport and to the correct gate for our flight, check in as standbys and if we get seats, great and if we don't, we wait until the next flight. It's only fair that because we flight for free that we are treated like anyone else. I have no issue with this policy because I know and have agreed to follow the rules.
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I never had any problem with the standby rules, either. I am not in any way blaming the airlines for the hassle of flight in today's world. Just nostalgic for those "olden days" when you just went in, got your boarding pass and walked up to the gate and got on the plane -- and your family could even walk up with you and wave goodbye. When I was a little kid, my dad flew a lot for work, and it was always fun to go up and meet him at the airport when he came home, and also watch the planes taking off and landing. We could actually watch out the windows of the arrival place and see him get off the plane and come down the steps and walk across the tarmac. I know none of that is possible in today's world.

The first time I flew I was about 16, flying alone, and trying to be very adult about the whole thing, even tho I was scared. I about had a heart attack when I heard the landing gear come up with a big fat CLUNK! sound and one of the stewardesses saw I was terrified and took a few minutes to sit down with me and explain the sounds I might hear, and about turbulence, etc. It was very kind of her and very reassuring. I've long forgotten where I was going or why, but I've never forgotten that woman's kindness in taking the time to allay my fears and turn what might have been a very scary trip for me into a fun adventure.
 
It's no secret that flying today with the many rules for passengers and regulations for flight crews that flying has become a bit of a chore. However, flying still has its' many rewards. Shorter travel time to long distance destinations is probably number one for the many that fly. At one time, flying was a lot of fun back when the airlines served food and showed movies, all included in the ticket price. Today, so many things on-board are now a la carte. OTOH, some of the foreign airlines still provide meals and free movies. United still feed their passengers on many international flights. United also feeds their flight crew on flights longer than three hours. Airline food has really improved since back in the day, but it still has room for improvement.

Those of us that were and/or are still in the airline business know and hear a lot of complaints about screening methods being used at the airports. It's a good thing that the TSA does, but they could also improve their methods for screening at some of the airports. Full body scans and arbitrary spot checks of baggage coming through security are both very good steps that the TSA provides to screen out possible terrorist activities, although we all know how much of a hassle it can be at times, especially when a passenger has someone behind them trying to push them through the security belts.
 
I know this man is supposed to be a practicing physician, but I have to wonder: could it be that he is not all there? Maybe early onset Alzheimer's? Though I guess in that case, his wife would have said something, instead of just leaving him on the plane.

But somehow, just stubbornly refusing to get off the plane and allowing himself to be physically dragged sounds somehow out of whack.
 
As more details about this incident become available, it seems that the largest blame should be placed on this passenger. Sure, the airlines should be held accountable for their practice of overbooking, and creating problems for passengers, and the manner in which this passenger was forcefully removed appears to be excessive...this whole incident continues to fall back to basically involving a passenger who become unmanageable and abusive....IMO.
 
Butterfly said:
I got bumped up to first class by TWA on the last leg of my flight when I flew home from Germany for my dad's funeral.
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Last time we visited family back east, go bumped to first class on the return flight. Yes, there is a God in heaven!

The "down side" is, now with that bit of luck, I'll have virtually no chance of hitting the lottery. Not that I really ever did have a chance, anyway. :shrug:
 
So now, a United spokesman has announced that they have changed their rules about bumping passengers, to make flying with them a much more positive experience. And they hope that all
the other airlines will make similar changes, so that their passengers can also have an equally positive experience.

This guy should get an award as spin doctor of the year!
 
Knight said:
Unfortunately that is the kind of time we are living in, no fly lists are not fail proof. Bottom line confrontation with police doing their job usually doesn't well, except in this case since a lawsuit will probably net him major bucks.

That brings up a whole other area. At age 69 how many years of earning against potential lawsuit win is fair compensation for his injuries?

Punitive is supposed to remedy what took place. How likely is it that this exact same scenario will happen again?
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I think the way that man was treated was disgusting, especially being a senior citizen and he certainly is not a man of stature. I'm pretty sure there was a better way they could have handled that. The fact that he didn't want to leave the plane did not give them the right to cause him bodily harm the way they did. Being a doctor, perhaps he had something very important that he had to return on time to take care of. In two faux pas, the airline first spoke out against the passenger, then I read that a false report was given about the doctor when in fact it was someone else. This solidifies my hesitancy about flying. I've been on a "personal boycott" of airlines for several years now. And as far as him getting paid, I read a couple of days ago that United has settled with him for an undisclosed amount. The good (hopefully) that came out of this is that the airlines are changing their bumping policies. Obviously people book flights because they need to be somewhere on time. Overbooking out of greed causes problems for passengers when they can't take their expected flights.
 
I agree with Don and Sunny. I wouldn't want to be in the same airplane as this creep, spoiling the entire flight with his attention getting
activities. All airlines should be on the lookout for this show off. I don't buy the excuse that he had to return for "something important
to "take care of". He should be charged with interfering with airline activities.

I'm a commercial pilot and I don't want anybody like him on MY airplane.
 
Falcon said:
I agree with Don and Sunny. I wouldn't want to be in the same airplane as this creep, spoiling the entire flight with his attention getting
activities. All airlines should be on the lookout for this show off. I don't buy the excuse that he had to return for "something important
to "take care of". He should be charged with interfering with airline activities.

I'm a commercial pilot and I don't want anybody like him on MY airplane.
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I agree with you and Don and Sunny. The whole spectacle was his own fault. And the whole "I'm a doctor" thing doesn't give him any more right to be on that plane than anybody else.
 
"Overbooking out of greed causes problems for passengers when they can't take their expected flights."

United, like other airlines, do not overbook because of greed. Every seat on the airplane has a value. For example; Let's say the plane going from Washington to Denver seats 200 passengers. United will sell 'X' amount of seats at a discounted price and 'X' amount of seats at a standard price, not including the higher class of seats, like first or business class. United, like all other carriers, know that there will be cancellations, so they over book the plane by say five seats. So, now they have sold 205 seats for an airplane that seats 200. If everyone does happen to show up, United will have to ask for anyone that may wish to give up their seat in exchange for a travel voucher that may be used for a later flight of their choice, plus a seat on the next plane going to their destination.

It's all about filling all the seats and having 100% utilization of the aircraft. I don't know of any airline company that is OK with flying seats that are empty. Empty seats are a loss of revenue for the company. As long as the seats can be filled, airlines can hold their price on ticket charges.

I flew a Boeing 767 for much of my career. Depending on which version of the 767 we were flying for our trip, the plane may seat from 180-350 passengers. Airlines figure costs different ways. Some will figure what it costs to fly each passenger per mile, while others may figure how much it costs to fly a certain size plane per hour. It costs thousands of dollars in fuel just to taxi the plane from the gate to the runway. Once the plane has reached the runway and we begin the takeoff roll, the pilot will fully throttle the engines, release the brakes and begin their 'roll' down the runway. Getting the plane into the air costs thousands of more dollars. It was once talked about to tow the plane to the runway in order to save on fuel and money, but that idea was met will all kinds of controversy, so it was put to rest. However, I think that someday we will see tugs towing planes out to the runway.

This is why it is important to have as many passengers as possible on the plane. It all helps to reduce costs and as far as I know, most all businesses are trying to reduce their costs.
 
Warrigal said:
Why not tell the last five people to book that they are on standby?
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Not a bad idea. In the future, if you purchase a ticket for a flight and you are not assigned a seat number, that very well may be because you are one of the "over-booked" passengers and you may be denied boarding if everyone that has been assigned a seat shows up for that particular flight. If you have a ticket without an assigned seat number, you should go to the airlines ticket counter ASAP upon your arrival at the airport and ask that you be given a seat number. In most cases, the gate agent will bump some other passenger out of his seat to oblige you. Like I wrote previously, if the plane seats 200 passengers and everyone of the 205 passengers booked show up, five people will not be getting on that particular plane.

This type of action understandably really upsets those passengers that find themselves without a seat. I have seen people try to bargain with a passenger that has an assigned seat, so that they may get to their destination without having to wait on the next plane. If you have ever watched the movie, "Home Alone" and Kevin's mother is trying to trade a passenger for their ticket by offering them money, jewelry, etc., that part is mostly true. I have seen this happen more than once.

I remember on one such occasion when we were really over-booked on a long flight from New York to LA and we had something like 15 passengers without a seat. The gate agents were telling the unassigned seat passengers that there just wasn't enough seats to be able to board everyone. Then, one of the passengers asked why the airline doesn't just pull a larger airplane out of the hangar, so that everyone could be accommodated. Sounds like a great idea, but I don't know of any airline that keeps spare planes at airports, so that they may be able to fulfill this type of need.

I have always suggested to people that have asked me how they could make certain that they get boarded, if they do not have a seat number on their confirmation to report to the airlines's ticket counter immediately after getting inside the terminal and request that they be assigned a seat number. Without a seat number on your reservation itinerary, you're kind of left out in the cold. Events like this cause a massive headache for the gate agents, but the airlines don't give a hoot. They train their agents to deal with it and normally, it is handled without a lot if fuss. Gate Agents make only about $12-14.00 per hour to have to deal with some of their irate passengers, so in turn, this will also cause a lot of turnover at different airlines.
 
I think that it was back in April when a passenger was removed from a Delta plane for ignoring a Flight Attendant's orders to remain seated as they were about to takeoff. It seems that the passenger had to use the lavatory. The plane had taxied out to the runway when the gentleman decided he needed to "go now." Of course, as is the norm these days, he is suing the airlines for his being humiliated in front of the other passengers.

I think that the Delta rep told the press that had they allowed him to use the lavatory, they would have lost their spot in line for taking off. That's a pretty lame excuse, if you ask me, but it is true. The FAA mandates that "all" passengers must be in their seats and belted before the plane may depart. What so many people do not understand is that it costs an airline thousands of dollars in fuel to taxi out to the runway and then to either have to be sidelined on one of the taxiways while a person uses the restroom or the plane returns to the gate, a lot of money is at stake.

In cases like this, the Captain receives a call from the Purser and requests that a passenger be permitted to use the lav. Generally, I would either request that the passenger hold his/her water until we have hit 10,000 feet, which takes just a few minutes, or I would have the Purser escort the person to and from the lav. Once inside the lav, the person was told to stay "seated" until told to come out. That way, no rules are broken and everyone is happy.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of using a little common sense or diplomacy.
 
If I ever find myself in a similar position I am going to volunteer to give up my seat for $100,000 USD in unmarked 10's and 20's.

I'll even let them issue me a 1099 for it at the end of the year so that I can pay taxes on it, because I am a Patriot.:D
 
SeaBreeze said:
From the story I heard it was the fault of the airline. I guess when they found that the flight was overbooked they started to ask for volunteers to give up their spots on that plane, and they offered up to $800. When they needed one more person off the plane, they randomly picked this poor guy. I don't blame him for not wanting to leave the plane, he was a doctor with business to attend to and he had a regular ticket, it's not like he was just flying stand-by and knew he may not make that flight. They should have done what they needed to, offer more money until they got one more volunteer.

I also heard that the seats were just for their airline employees to go to another airport where they had flights to work on. Well, they should have just put one of their employees on another airline in a case like that IMO. It would've been a lot cheaper for them in the long run.

I hope this man sues them for calling the cops and taking such drastic physical action, that's way out of line in my opinion. I don't know what's going on with these airlines these days, but I'm glad I rarely have to fly anywhere. Ideally, they wouldn't have allowed the man to board in the first place, dragging him off on the floor was outrageous.
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I agree. Though I do think the chosen passenger would have been better off if he'd managed to keep his cool. Airlines that overbook are being unreasonable, unfair to all passengers...."Has the plane I'm on been overbooked? If so, will I be asked (demanded) to deplane?!" The airline should find better solutions to preventing loss of profits.
 

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