Perth worker sacked for incorrectly addressing non-binary colleague

[Trish]

I agree, Vaughan, but I think the confusion goes beyond the age of the listener or reader. Here's an example:

I was reading an advice column in the Washington Post, which knocks itself out using politically correct (woke) terminology. Someone wrote that his daughter, with whom he had issues involving the daughter's boyfriend, was coming for a visit, and he was asking for some advice.

The answer from the columnist was something like, "When they arrive greet them warmly, and express how happy you are to see them."

My reaction was: Huh? The daughter is bringing her boyfriend for the visit? But the person asking for advice didn't say that. How many people were coming on this visit? Just the daughter was "they?" What's going on?

Obviously, this was of zero importance to me personally. But imagine the confusion and misunderstanding that can be engendered if everybody starts talking like that all the time.

However, we interestingly do use "they/their/them" for a single person all the time when we don't know who they are. "Somebody must have left their wallet here."

To be honest @Sunny, using "they" for an individual has always seemed odd to me but, you are right, we often do use the term "they" when referring to one person.

In the case of someone addressing a colleague as "he" when they had asked to be addressed as "they", I do wonder why the colleague wasn't just introduced by name: "This is my colleague, Sunny".

 

[JustDave]

It's sounds like the advice giver just misread the question and assumed the boyfriend would be with the daughter.

To be honest @Sunny, using "they" for an individual has always seemed odd to me but, you are right, we often do use the term "they" when referring to one person.

In the case of someone addressing a colleague as "he" when they had asked to be addressed as "they", I do wonder why the colleague wasn't just introduced by name: "This is my colleague, Sunny".

I use their a lot in the case of one person. Grammatically correct? Probably not, but it seems natural for some reason.

 

[Sunny]

I think it's grammatically correct, or at least we're used to it, when we don't know the person's gender, like in the wallet example I gave above. But when you ask, "When is your sister coming to visit?" and the answer is, "They are coming next Tuesday," that's when it gets confusing. Of course, if the sister is bringing her husband, kids, etc. then the plural pronouns are perfectly appropriate. But for only one person? Sorry, I just can't get used to that.

 

[spookycat2]

I'm glad I'm not in a workplace environment anymore. My reaction to this kind of bs, as my older cousin would say, would trigger my Cherokee ancestry, it may be four generations back but it is there when pushed too far... Lol

 

[Jules]

I don't know if this is a right/wrong thing. But would the ladies here have been offended by someone using "Ms"?

I would prefer it.

 

[Warrigal]

One of the parts of the German language that I found most difficult was Its use of gender pronouns where objects were assigned feminine or masculine identities. You had to remember the gender of objects and/or special situations. It seemed to me as a high schooler who was taking German to meet the then college entrance requirements of two years in foreign language as extremely cumbersome. I wish I would have taken Spanish instead. It would have been more useful.

But I'm getting side tracked. I have not yet been reprimanded for using an incorrect pronoun for a person. But I will rue the day I might misidentify a woman who wants to be a woman as a man.

I wouldn't worry too much about that @JustDave. As a 10 year old girl I was taught that in legal language the word "he" and "man" also stood for "she" and "woman". I later learned not to rely on this promise of inclusion.

In reality, it all boils down to manners. An apology goes a long way if a mistake is made.

 

[Bretrick]

I'm not buying this "reported" incident by the The West Australia. All the other accounts for this supposed incident only cite one source- The West Australia. To me, this has fake news all over it. No names of anyone connected with this incident., no business where it happened. No real details. I can "report" that the world blew up three days ago, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

Confidentiality clauses re no names given.
Here is the latest update.
I doubt there will be any more written about this in the near future because a "confidential settlement" was negoiated
https://www.perthnow.com.au/wa/non-...-for-calling-colleague-he-not-they-c-19601114

 

[ohioboy]

As a 10 year old girl I was taught that in legal language the word "he" and "man" also stood for "she" and "woman".

In the States that's known as Statutory Construction. In AUS it is known as Statutory Interpretation.

Gender and number
In any Act or instrument—
(a) a word or expression that indicates one or more particular genders shall be taken to indicate every other gender,
(b) a reference to a word or expression in the singular form includes a reference to the word or expression in the plural form,
(c) a reference to a word or expression in the plural form includes a reference to the word or expression in the singular form,
(d) a reference to a person does not exclude a reference to a corporation merely because elsewhere in the Act or instrument there is particular reference to a corporation (in whatever terms expressed), and
(e) a reference to a person does not exclude a reference to an individual merely because elsewhere in the Act or instrument there is particular reference to an individual (in whatever terms expressed).

 

[January]

I think it's grammatically correct, or at least we're used to it, when we don't know the person's gender, like in the wallet example I gave above. But when you ask, "When is your sister coming to visit?" and the answer is, "They are coming next Tuesday," that's when it gets confusing. Of course, if the sister is bringing her husband, kids, etc. then the plural pronouns are perfectly appropriate. But for only one person? Sorry, I just can't get used to that.

Yes because the answer is about a specific known person ( the sister)

But something like " if the owner of lost wallet calls reception, they can collect it from there" - we don't mean more than 1 person can collect it, we mean unspecified person.
That is still grammatically correct and nothing new or woke about it.

 

[mrstime]

I would find it very difficult to call one person 'they' !

 

[JustDave]

From the article:

the worker — a biological male who identified neither a man nor a woman.

At least this explains what the debate is about and helps me understand. Unfortunately, with more clarity of the situation, it still doesn't make more sense. Even the explanation requires using the words "biological male," which should be every bit offensive as calling a male "he."

Is a man who doesn't believe he is a man have the right to demand the workplace fire colleagues because of his personal idiosyncrasy? I think politics have more important issues to confront at this time in history. I don't think this helps to further the cause of identity politics either. I hope this guy's life turns out OK, but I'm not going to join a protest carrying a sign supporting him. I don't think it's that important. His company can decide what to do, and then win or lose this in court. I hope the settlement requires little more than an apology from the CEO, and the company can go on producing widgets.

 

[Sunny]

I would find it very difficult to call one person 'they' !

Not only difficult, it completely confuses the conversation. Example from real life:

I was talking with someone who has a sister who has "transitioned" into a male. The sister wants to be called only by plural pronouns. When I asked if "she" (she wasn't present at this conversation) is getting any psychiatric help - there are other issues, such as depression - the answer I got was, "Yes, they are getting help from a good therapist. They say it does help."

For a minute or two, I was totally perplexed. I had forgotten about the "they/them" thing, and was wondering who else is going for therapy. Is it a group kind of thing? Finally, duh, it dawned on me, we were only talking about one person.

Part of the problem is that we are dealing with "third person" pronouns. When speaking or writing to the person him/herself, we use "I and You."
The third person pronoun usually comes into play when that person is not even there. So other people's language is being unnecessarily controlled by someone who is not present. (Of course, "they" are there if it's something written in a public article, but usually they are not.)