Pfizer knew and lied

Alligatorob said:
Absolutely, true of both sides. There are lots of experts with a huge range of expert opinions out there. Easy to find several to support most any position.

That's why I try to find larger population data based studies, and avoid listening to opinions without hard data.
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And that's why I note the experiences of several friends & other people I know.
 

win231 said:
The problem is getting valid proof.
Quoting a bunch of doctors who say "Everyone should get vaccinated" is not valid proof. Doctors are not always right & they have their own biases. Most will not jeopardize their careers by criticizing a vaccine their peers & drug companies are pushing.

Ever seen that ad for extended car warranties? Now there are "experts" selling them in the ads:
Some rap star named "Ice T" (hell, yeah....he would know)
Robert Herjavec - that wealthy shark on Shark Tank. (Well, hey....he's got money, so if he says it's a good idea, it must be)
Remember when Dr. Oz spent a whole hour on his show promoting "Green Coffee Extract" for weight loss? He produced several sexy young women who claimed they lost weight by drinking it & not changing their diets. And he's a real.......doctor.

They'll say whatever they're paid to say.
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I take as credible whatever CDC and the World Health Organization say. I am also aware that many people don't trust them. Whom do they trust? Magicians who sell snake oil for preventing Covid? Or do they think it's just a lie that millions of people died of Covid? These may also be people who deny that the holocast ever happened. Beats me.
 
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I grew up in a generation that lived better due to vaccines. We didn't get Polio, Measles, Rubella, and many other viruses and for this reason, I am vaccinated against Covid. I also get the flu vaccine each year, even though it's not always 100% effective, but I can say I've not had the flu since I've been getting vaccinated. The Covid vaccine seems likewise, not 100% effective however, everything I've read shows that my chances are better with the vaccine than without it. It might be better if the two sides would simply mind their own business though. If you want to get vaccinated do it, if you don't then skip it. Eventually, time will tell which group stays healthier.
 

packleader said:
I take as credible whatever CDC and the World Health Organization say. I am also aware that many people don't trust them. Whom do they trust? Magicians who sell snake oil for preventing Covid? Or do they think it's just a lie that millions of people died of Covid? These may also be people who deny that the holocast ever happened. Beats me.
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Some facts:
A large amount of the money for the WHO comes from Bill Gates (via Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation), who is not just a philanthrop.
And one of the major donors of the WHO is the GAVI, the vaccine alliance, located in Geneva, Switzerland (the same place as the WHO, what a coincidence;)), which itself is mostly donated by the UK, the USA and - how surprising - the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020...nization-un-coronavirus-pandemic-covid-trump/
The director-general of the WHO Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus is accused of aiding genocide in his homecountry Ethiopia.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ocide-Ethiopia-nobel-peace-prize-nominee.html
The WHO changed the definition of a pandemic in 2009, by excluding the phrase "with enormous numbers of deaths and illness." In other words, every simple cold worldwide could be declared as a pandemic. The new definition is valid for all diseases, not only the flu.
https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/who-changed-definition-influenza-pandemic
And the CDC is a United States federal agency and therefore not independent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention

How 'trustworthy' these organizations are, makes me shudder.
 
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George1959 said:
Some facts:
A large amount of the money for the WHO comes from Bill Gates (via Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation), who is not just a philanthrop.
And one of the major donors of the WHO is the GAVI, the vaccine alliance, located in Geneva, Switzerland (the same place as the WHO, what a coincidence;)), which itself is mostly donated by the UK, the USA and - how surprising - the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020...nization-un-coronavirus-pandemic-covid-trump/
The director-general of the WHO Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus is accused of aiding genocide in his homecountry Ethiopia.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ocide-Ethiopia-nobel-peace-prize-nominee.html
The WHO changed the definition of a pandemic in 2009, by excluding the phrase "with enormous numbers of deaths and illness." In other words, every simple cold worldwide could be declared as a pandemic. The new definition is valid for all diseases, not only the flu.
https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/who-changed-definition-influenza-pandemic
And the CDC is a United States federal agency and therefore not independent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention

How 'trustworthy' these organizations are, makes me shudder.
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Exactly. I feel the same.
 
Raddragn said:
The experience of "several friends and other people" is hardly representative of the entire human race.
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While this is true, being able to share experiences and gain information from other people has been discouraged by our government during this whole pandemic which makes others' experiences and opinions more relevant IMHO. It seems that those controlling the propaganda don't want us talking to each other about covid 19 if it goes against their proscribed narrative. :unsure:
 
SeniorBen said:
Educated people tend to hangout with other educated people, and most anti-vaxxers aren't college educated.
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I am not sure how true that is. I know some quite intelligent well educated people who are against the vaccinations. Don't know any doctors who are, but one nurse practitioner. I disagree with them, but try to listen to why they are anti-vax. None have convinced me, yet. However I am open to it, if as I always say they can point to good large population data based studies for support.

I don't know people's education levels here, but I think some of our anti-vaxers are smart folks. I just think they are wrong.

Oh, and I am fairly well educated, a former "professional student" but count many as friends who are not, makes no difference to me! In fact some of the people I feel most comfortable around are not college educated.
 
SeniorBen said:
It seems a bit odd that so many people who are anti-vax have friends who are medical doctors, and those doctors confidentially tell the anti-vaxxers that the pandemic is a hoax and the vaccines are deadly.

Personally, I don't believe they have friends who are doctors. Educated people tend to hangout with other educated people, and most anti-vaxxers aren't college educated.
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I am college educated. :love:
 
packleader said:
I take as credible whatever CDC and the World Health Organization say. I am also aware that many people don't trust them. Whom do they trust? Magicians who sell snake oil for preventing Covid? Or do they think it's just a lie that millions of people died of Covid? These may also be people who deny that the holocast ever happened. Beats me.
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So do I. Some people just don't trust the government at all, due to paying too much attention to conspiracies and fear mongering. Many people died from Covid, I have one in my family. People who deny all these deaths happened in America and around the world, and who deny that the Holocaust ever happened, are not grounded in reality.
 
SeniorBen said:
It seems a bit odd that so many people who are anti-vax have friends who are medical doctors, and those doctors confidentially tell the anti-vaxxers that the pandemic is a hoax and the vaccines are deadly.

Personally, I don't believe they have friends who are doctors. Educated people tend to hangout with other educated people, and most anti-vaxxers aren't college educated.
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Sometimes I think these doctors might just tell their head strong patients what they want to hear, not to cause any upset in the medical facility. Any doctor or nurse I've come in contact with encourages vaccination for this deadly pandemic, I wouldn't go to a quak who did not.
 
SeaBreeze said:
Sometimes I think these doctors might just tell their head strong patients what they want to hear, not to cause any upset in the medical facility. Any doctor or nurse I've come in contact with encourages vaccination for this deadly pandemic, I wouldn't go to a quak who did not.
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Some doctors might tell their patients that it's up to them whether or not to get vaccinated, but I doubt too many of them tell their patients that the pandemic is a hoax and that vaccinations are useless. But, like in any field, there are bad doctors out there, so it could happen... Dr. Ronny Jackson is a good example.
 
SeniorBen said:
Some doctors might tell their patients that it's up to them whether or not to get vaccinated, but I doubt too many of them tell their patients that the pandemic is a hoax and that vaccinations are useless. But, like in any field, there are bad doctors out there, so it could happen... Dr. Ronny Jackson is a good example.
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I agree. In that case the patient may be taking advantage of the fact that nobody they are telling this to was in the doctor's office with them. So they may stretch the truth or out and out lie, just to push their anti-vaxx/Covid narrative. Easy to say that the doctor agreed, when nobody can speak to that specific doctor and confirm the allegation.
 
"Any doctor or nurse I've come in contact with encourages vaccination"

It's certainly what I would do - not because I support any propaganda, etc. but because I care about a patients welfare. I also care about mine and the welfare of my family. To me, trying to talk people out of vaccination is a highly hostile act! If you have some reason not to want one - fine - then don't get one - then shut the H up!
 
Raddragn said:
"Any doctor or nurse I've come in contact with encourages vaccination"

It's certainly what I would do - not because I support any propaganda, etc. but because I care about a patients welfare. I also care about mine and the welfare of my family. To me, trying to talk people out of vaccination is a highly hostile act! If you have some reason not to want one - fine - then don't get one - then shut the H up!
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" To me, trying to talk people out of vaccination is a highly hostile act! If you have some reason not to want one - fine - then don't get one - then shut the H up!"

People have the right to express their concerns regarding why they do not want to be vaccinated, I have not seen one person here tell anyone not to be vaccinated!

"If you have some reason not to want one - fine - then don't get one - then shut the H up!"

Oh I see, only those supporting being vaccinated have the right to an opinion according to you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Raddragn said:
"Any doctor or nurse I've come in contact with encourages vaccination"

It's certainly what I would do - not because I support any propaganda, etc. but because I care about a patients welfare. I also care about mine and the welfare of my family. To me, trying to talk people out of vaccination is a highly hostile act! If you have some reason not to want one - fine - then don't get one - then shut the H up!
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^^^^ You have it backwards. People (like myself) who choose not to get vaccinated don't care about others' vaccination choice UNTIL vaccinated people get rude, hostile & insulting towards them. THEY are the ones who make it a fight.
I've driven elderly friends to get their vaccinations because that's what they wanted. I've never discouraged anyone from vaccination; why should I? They have as much right to their health choices as I do. If someone asks me why I don't want the vaccine, I'll tell them. That is NOT discouraging them from getting vaccinated; that is simply answering their question.
The problem is, some vaccinated people whose confidence in the vaccine is already weak is weakened further by people who don't want the vaccine.
 
win231 said:
And that's why I note the experiences of several friends & other people I know.
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my nieghbor lady ...downstairs has once again contracted covid had it a year ago or so along with all the shots......I have determined that these folks are not stupid it is something else- i cannot fully explain-it seems they are born that way ...maybe incapable of grasping....maybe no instincts.....something, maybe with delusions ....again something we are born with or without--- like negativity -nevertheless they drink the kool aid and dislike me and those like me for not drinking it.....--the non drinkers seem to be swelling in numbers mostly because the others are sick dying or already dead.
 
boliverchadsworth said:
--the non drinkers seem to be swelling in numbers mostly because the others are sick dying or already dead.
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Actually that is not what the numbers show. To the contrary death rates, both for covid and non-covid causes are higher for the unvaccinated. The fact that the vaccine lowers death rates for all causes takes out any bias based on how covid deaths are counted.

Many studies have been done, all show the same result. I cite one below as an example, many others have been previously cited here.

A safety study evaluating non-COVID-19 mortality risk following COVID-19 vaccination
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9763207/
 
boliverchadsworth said:
my nieghbor lady ...downstairs has once again contracted covid had it a year ago or so along with all the shots......I have determined that these folks are not stupid it is something else- i cannot fully explain-it seems they are born that way ...maybe incapable of grasping....maybe no instincts.....something, maybe with delusions ....again something we are born with or without--- like negativity -nevertheless they drink the kool aid and dislike me and those like me for not drinking it.....--the non drinkers seem to be swelling in numbers mostly because the others are sick dying or already dead.
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This is something we all wonder about now but will never be allowed to know for sure I think. For obvious reasons, our governments will never admit to the truth of any of it. I'm afraid it will have to hit people slowly the way dawn breaks.
 


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