Possible solutions for fire prone areas of the country

[bobcat]

One strategy is that small, controlled fires may be necessary for preventing bigger ones.
Environmentalists don't like it, because it appears as voluntary destruction, but it just may accomplish a greater good.
Something needs to be done to avoid catastrophic situations that are compounded by global warming.
The resources don't seem to be there to thin out the underbrush and tinder in other ways.

 

[againstthegrain]

The USFS were doing controlled fires for decades now. In 1988 at Yellowstone most of acreage burned was in a "let burn" status to create the mosaic pattern in the landscape thats thought to be protective against meagafires.

Lately budget money has all flowed to fire fighting vs fire prevention so that puts a limit on how much burning can be accomplished.

This situation isn't compounded by global warming it's because of GW. Throw in population growth, and the great influx of homes creating the wildland-urban interface makes for difficult conditions to fight fire in.

 

[Warrigal]

One thing that might need some attention is the invasion of the natural environment by eucalypts. They don't belong in US and they are quite fire prone. After a fire, they usually regenerate better than the native northern hemisphere vegetation. If killed by the fire, they have already laid down abundant seed beds that germinate as soon as rain falls on the ashes.

 

[officerripley]

One thing that might need some attention is the invasion of the natural environment by eucalypts. They don't belong in US and they are quite fire prone. After a fire, they usually regenerate better than the native northern hemisphere vegetation. If killed by the fire, they have already laid down abundant seed beds that germinate as soon as rain falls on the ashes.

And I’m allergic to ‘em anyway.

 

[Jules]

Environmentalists don't like it, because it appears as voluntary destruction, but it just may accomplish a greater good.

They just think they’re environmentalists. Usually city dwellers spouting nonsense.

 

[fuzzybuddy]

Just as strange as building on a flood plain, and then getting flooded, maybe building in a fire prone area is the same.

 

[JBR]

One strategy is that small, controlled fires may be necessary for preventing bigger ones.
Environmentalists don't like it, because it appears as voluntary destruction, but it just may accomplish a greater good.
Something needs to be done to avoid catastrophic situations that are compounded by global warming.
The resources don't seem to be there to thin out the underbrush and tinder in other ways.

Around my area, there are many people who've been environmentalists for decades. My sense is that nearly all of us accept the wisdom of prescriptive, controlled burns to reduce the likelihood of uncontrollable wildfire.

 

[jimintoronto]

Here in the city of Toronto, High Park is one of our largest urban parks, about 500 acres in the middle of the city. Every year in the spring the city Parks Department does a controlled burn in High Park, to control the growth of weeds and brush. High Park has a number of rare tree types, and this burn helps to encourage their growth.

 

[VintageBetter]

One strategy is that small, controlled fires may be necessary for preventing bigger ones.
Environmentalists don't like it, because it appears as voluntary destruction, but it just may accomplish a greater good.
Something needs to be done to avoid catastrophic situations that are compounded by global warming.
The resources don't seem to be there to thin out the underbrush and tinder in other ways.

I just know I have heard this argument on other sites, especially about Pristine, Prissy and Protected NorCal, but for the love of all things holy, HARVEST THE LUMBER.

DON'T BURN THE TREES - THIN THEM LIKE A GARDENER does when he plants a crop by seed. In the old days, when people had to seed by hand, some seeds might have fallen in a clump so at about 4 weeks fo growth you might have to thin the seedlings go the maturing plants woudl have enough space to grow.

That is all they have to do. Hire some logging companies and THIN THE TREES.

THEN, and only then, if they still feel like they should burn some crap up, I guess they can be idiots and create CO and burn trees,. But blankely-blank insert swear word here, our Modern People need to learn a thing or two from the OLD WAYS.

 

[VintageBetter]

Around my area, there are many people who've been environmentalists for decades. My sense is that nearly all of us accept the wisdom of prescriptive, controlled burns to reduce the likelihood of uncontrollable wildfire.

Does anyone ever discuss perceptive, controlled, harvesting of lumber??????

 

[JBR]

Does anyone ever discuss perceptive, controlled, harvesting of lumber??????

Definitely. This discussion in my area got started in the late 1970s. However, those interested at the time had no clout with corporate business or with government. Resident-based groups developing a vision for that, and presenting it to government agencies, established themselves by the mid 1980s. There were protests against the practices of the larger sawmill corporations.

In terms of personal involvement, as a freelance writer, during the '80s and '90s I published articles pertaining to the idea of planned, selective logging. I subsequently worked as the manager of a regional business association that furthered the interests of resident-owned progressive forest-products businesses.

 

[VintageBetter]

"There were protests against the practices of the larger sawmill corporations' practices."

And what were the complaints? They did not build enough butterfly shelters before logging? I'm being sarcastic. Or did they use fossil fuels to run the chainsaws?

I'm still amazed that environmentalists are so powerful in CA that chickens have won the right to live in one square foot of space in their egg-laying years, but humans have not. Humans have no rights to weather-protected, individual space in CA.

Oh if they could only teach the homeless to lay eggs.

 

[JBR]

"There were protests against the practices of the larger sawmill corporations' practices."

And what were the complaints? They did not build enough butterfly shelters before logging? I'm being sarcastic. Or did they use fossil fuels to run the chainsaws?

I'm still amazed that environmentalists are so powerful in CA that chickens have won the right to live in one square foot of space in their egg-laying years, but humans have not. Humans have no rights to weather-protected, individual space in CA.

Oh if they could only teach the homeless to lay eggs.

On SF, sarcasm may not be helpful in addressing the issues of forest management.

To your point about chickens and homeless people, I think you're steering this thread away from its topic.

 

[againstthegrain]

Many of the practices that might help have been done for decades. Any work done costs big money and the area that needs to be treated is vast. There is no money, there are few loggers, sawmills are many miles away, uncontrolled controlled burns are a career and image killer.....along with many other difficulties prevent work on a scale that could actually make a significant difference.

The landscape is never going back to the way it was so get used to it. Glad many of you can take your frustrations out on the unnamed "environmentalists", everybody needs some body to hate and blame. However it can not be understated how much change in fires and fire behavior can be traced to GW and population growth.

extended heat wave

 

[againstthegrain]

"There were protests against the practices of the larger sawmill corporations' practices."

And what were the complaints? They did not build enough butterfly shelters before logging? I'm being sarcastic. Or did they use fossil fuels to run the chainsaws?

I'm still amazed that environmentalists are so powerful in CA that chickens have won the right to live in one square foot of space in their egg-laying years, but humans have not. Humans have no rights to weather-protected, individual space in CA.

Oh if they could only teach the homeless to lay eggs.

The government of CA has no authority to manage federal lands so you're attempt to conflate to CA social policy w forest management is a canard only serving to distract and anger.

 

[papa tiger]

Most likely Smoky has it right. Only you can prevent a forest fire unless Mother Nature lights the match with a bolt of lightning. Creating a clearing around the ranch is a wise choice.

 

[bobcat]

I just know I have heard this argument on other sites, especially about Pristine, Prissy and Protected NorCal, but for the love of all things holy, HARVEST THE LUMBER.

DON'T BURN THE TREES - THIN THEM LIKE A GARDENER does when he plants a crop by seed. In the old days, when people had to seed by hand, some seeds might have fallen in a clump so at about 4 weeks fo growth you might have to thin the seedlings go the maturing plants woudl have enough space to grow.

That is all they have to do. Hire some logging companies and THIN THE TREES.

THEN, and only then, if they still feel like they should burn some crap up, I guess they can be idiots and create CO and burn trees,. But blankely-blank insert swear word here, our Modern People need to learn a thing or two from the OLD WAYS.

With due respect, if it were only that simple.
I grew up in a logging community and have spent many years there. Several of my family members have been loggers, so I will share a little info here.

Harvesting timber and thinning it out is all well and good, but it's just a fraction of the problem. Logging roads, spurs, and landings will only get you so far in the forest. In many areas, there aren't roads, and it's cost prohibitive and ugly to have logging roads literally everywhere in the forest. In addition, many areas just aren't accessible to log, unless it's done by helicopter, which is just too expensive to make a profit.

Next, you have other factors at play. There are many beetle kill trees, which almost no one wants because of the blue stain in the wood. In the areas you can access and log, brush piles are built from the slash, and they are burned anyway in the wetter months. Next, you have the problem of brush that is everywhere (Manzanita, Chapparal, and Scrub Brush) that quickly recovers, and is the fire ladder that get it into the treetops. When you thin out trees, it proliferates, and doing clear cutting is not popular with the general population.

Not to be ignored, is the reality that logging companies need to make a profit or they won't bid. If there aren't enough mature trees, it won't give them the ROI. Smaller diameter trees make that much more difficult. In addition, hauling distance also factors in. The further you have to haul the logs from the middle of nowhere to a local mill eats away the bottom line.

What I'm saying here is, it's just not that simple. You have to understand all the mechanics and elements. I'm not saying controlled burns are the only answer, but if there aren't other viable alternatives, it does provide a way to reduce the major danger.

 

[JBR]

Bobcat, I've felled trees on my own and (with permission) other people's private land, but I've never earned money in logging. Still, I've lived in a forest clearing in primary-resource country for many decades now. I understand the points you've brought in.

Most of the forestry-reform activism in my immediate area has been related to safeguarding consumptive-use watersheds, to try to ensure household & farm water sources for home & irrigation. We've gone up into the developed tenures up on the ridges to become familiar with logging sites. The main leader for many years was an accredited forester and forest ecologist, who began his career as an employee of one of the largest logging/milling corporations in the US Pacific Northwest.

There are also "preservationists" in my region whose focus is more on reserving certain tracts of fairly pristine old growth — but it's pretty generally understood that not all of BC's forested areas can be parks, since employment is an essential. Equally essential are building materials.

 

[bobcat]

Bobcat, I've felled trees on my own and (with permission) other people's private land, but I've never earned money in logging. Still, I've lived in a forest clearing in primary-resource country for many decades now. I understand the points you've brought in.

Most of the forestry-reform activism in my immediate area has been related to safeguarding consumptive-use watersheds, to try to ensure household & farm water sources for home & irrigation. We've gone up into the developed tenures up on the ridges to become familiar with logging sites. The main leader for many years was an accredited forester and forest ecologist, who began his career as an employee of one of the largest logging/milling corporations in the US Pacific Northwest.

There are also "preservationists" in my region whose focus is more on reserving certain tracts of fairly pristine old growth — but it's pretty generally understood that not all of BC's forested areas can be parks, since employment is an essential. Equally essential are building materials.

Yes, good point. Harvesting timber is wise and necessary. Trees have a limited lifespan, and they will die one way or another from windstorms, lightning, bugs, fire, or disease. It makes sense to harvest the mature trees before they suffer that fate, thereby providing jobs and lumber for building.

The problem is they are just not all accessible. So supplemental methods need to be utilized to reduce major wildfires.

 

[VintageBetter]

With due respect, if it were only that simple.
I grew up in a logging community and have spent many years there. Several of my family members have been loggers, so I will share a little info here.

Harvesting timber and thinning it out is all well and good, but it's just a fraction of the problem. Logging roads, spurs, and landings will only get you so far in the forest. In many areas, there aren't roads, and it's cost prohibitive and ugly to have logging roads literally everywhere in the forest. In addition, many areas just aren't accessible to log, unless it's done by helicopter, which is just too expensive to make a profit.

Next, you have other factors at play. There are many beetle kill trees, which almost no one wants because of the blue stain in the wood. In the areas you can access and log, brush piles are built from the slash, and they are burned anyway in the wetter months. Next, you have the problem of brush that is everywhere (Manzanita, Chapparal, and Scrub Brush) that quickly recovers, and is the fire ladder that get it into the treetops. When you thin out trees, it proliferates, and doing clear cutting is not popular with the general population.

Not to be ignored, is the reality that logging companies need to make a profit or they won't bid. If there aren't enough mature trees, it won't give them the ROI. Smaller diameter trees make that much more difficult. In addition, hauling distance also factors in. The further you have to haul the logs from the middle of nowhere to a local mill eats away the bottom line.

What I'm saying here is, it's just not that simple. You have to understand all the mechanics and elements. I'm not saying controlled burns are the only answer, but if there aren't other viable alternatives, it does provide a way to reduce the major danger.

Building the Hoover Dam was not simple either and yet, we got it done.

What I'm saying is, the men in charge lack the will. As for blue-stained wood from beetles, can't that still be used for firewood or fences? What about for subfloor? Who cares if your subfloor is blue-stained wood if it is structurally sound? For many decades we had no highway system. People whined it was too complicated and expensive. Then, somehow, someone got up the nerve to push the idea through.

I guess it's just me. I'm the problem here. I look at my life and I raised multiple children pretty much alone, didn't want to be alone but geezs, even their dad was too busy for them, got three degrees along the way, helped three seriously ill extended family members and my children, who learned hard work from somewhere (must have been from TV, right?) have earned SIX degrees between them. They all work full-time, plus they have family, significant others and hobbies to attend to. And pets.

So, when men in charge and I'm sorry, it is usually always men, say, "Oh it's just too difficult and complex" I just want to sit them all down and yell at them, "Have you ever met even one single mom in your freakin' life?"

Maybe the men in charge are just lazy?

 

[bobcat]

Building the Hoover Dam was not simple either and yet, we got it done.

What I'm saying is, the men in charge lack the will. As for blue-stained wood from beetles, can't that still be used for firewood or fences? What about for subfloor? Who cares if your subfloor is blue-stained wood if it is structurally sound? For many decades we had no highway system. People whined it was too complicated and expensive. Then, somehow, someone got up the nerve to push the idea through.

I guess it's just me. I'm the problem here. I look at my life and I raised multiple children pretty much alone, didn't want to be alone but geezs, even their dad was too busy for them, got three degrees along the way, helped three seriously ill extended family members and my children, who learned hard work from somewhere (must have been from TV, right?) have earned SIX degrees between them. They all work full-time, plus they have family, significant others and hobbies to attend to. And pets.

So, when men in charge and I'm sorry, it is usually always men, say, "Oh it's just too difficult and complex" I just want to sit them all down and yell at them, "Have you ever met even one single mom in your freakin' life?"

Maybe the men in charge are just lazy?

Kudos to your accomplishments in life, and to your children, but again, with due respect, one thing doesn't equate to the other. This isn't about lazy or stupid people, it is about economics. Getting all harvestable timber out of all the forests, and clearing out all the slash and brush that's left, and doing it without it costing $10 per board foot for a 2 x 4 isn't as simple as just having these stupid and lazy people come and talk to you.

As for the blue stained wood caused by the blue mold fungus carried by the beetles, yes it can be used for firewood (If you like burning pine), but I have cut more firewood in my lifetime than I would ever care to think about, and it just doesn't make sense to my lame brain to carry it for miles out of a dense forest to load in my truck (Perhaps that makes me lazy too), and FYI, pine doesn't make good fences.

It can be, and is used in some building, but because the stain is from mold, some will shy away from it. Personally, I think if it is kiln dried and sealed, it is harmless, but a lawyer representing a client who had a house built using it, and who develops health issues, may be a varmint that contractors would rather avoid.

Look, almost anything is possible if you have enough time and money, but that's not reality. Budgets dictate what is possible. Making major problems go away are often not as simple as they seem. A tree faller (Or Feller) shouldn't tell a brain surgeon he or she could get the job done much quicker and cheaper by using a chain saw to cut with. Precision is needed in both fields, but we all need to learn to stay in our own lane and trust those who have much more knowledge in their field.

 

[VintageBetter]

Kudos to your accomplishments in life, and to your children, but again, with due respect, one thing doesn't equate to the other. This isn't about lazy or stupid people, it is about economics. Getting all harvestable timber out of all the forests, and clearing out all the slash and brush that's left, and doing it without it costing $10 per board foot for a 2 x 4 isn't as simple as just having these stupid and lazy people come and talk to you.

As for the blue stained wood caused by the blue mold fungus carried by the beetles, yes it can be used for firewood (If you like burning pine), but I have cut more firewood in my lifetime than I would ever care to think about, and it just doesn't make sense to my lame brain to carry it for miles out of a dense forest to load in my truck (Perhaps that makes me lazy too), and FYI, pine doesn't make good fences.

It can be, and is used in some building, but because the stain is from mold, some will shy away from it. Personally, I think if it is kiln dried and sealed, it is harmless, but a lawyer representing a client who had a house built using it, and who develops health issues, may be a varmint that contractors would rather avoid.

Look, almost anything is possible if you have enough time and money, but that's not reality. Budgets dictate what is possible. Making major problems go away are often not as simple as they seem. A tree faller (Or Feller) shouldn't tell a brain surgeon he or she could get the job done much quicker and cheaper by using a chain saw to cut with. Precision is needed in both fields, but we all need to learn to stay in our own lane and trust those who have much more knowledge in their field.

OR, is it about leaving the U.S. lumber market open to foreign, imported lumber?

I can see Gov. Newsom rationalizing a choice like that: partner with China for all the lumber needs while setting a torch to CA forests. He would call that "globalism", not "rampant, hypocritical, CO2 pollution".

The hypocrisy of it all is astonishing. The Fed gives us subsidies so we can afford TVs, but also authorizes the volunteering burning of thousands of acres of unusable timber to create clouds of CO2.

If we all stay in our lanes, innovations never happen. The oil companies have been telling EV car designers that for 90 years: "People will never buy cars that have to be re-charged. Give it up." But they didn't listen.

Can't pine wood be bleached to kill all traces of blue mold and then used to make furniture? I also just read that pine is good for exterior projects. Maybe they mean pressure treated pine?

All I know is, ashes ain't good for much at all except maybe for mulch. But you can't build things from ash. Nor can you make a table and chairs from it.

 

[againstthegrain]

It seems like cluelessness is not restricted to city dwellers or "environmentalists."

 

[JBR]

It seems like cluelessness is not restricted to city dwellers or "environmentalists."

Please elaborate a little. For one thing, your context is U.S.

Are you responding to what's been stated in any specific post(s) in this thread?

 

[Paco Dennis]

One thing that might need some attention is the invasion of the natural environment by eucalypts. They don't belong in US and they are quite fire prone. After a fire, they usually regenerate better than the native northern hemisphere vegetation. If killed by the fire, they have already laid down abundant seed beds that germinate as soon as rain falls on the ashes.

What a memory! in 1991 near Oakland, Ca. the eucalyptus trees that were all over the mountain ridge needed a fire break. Fire had erupted and we had to work fast. I was on a crew. like this

I must have fell a couple 100 of 200ft. trees. Learned to climb and "top" them when they were close to utility lines.

The results payed off. That large of a fire break and even in strong winds the fire couldn't "jump".

That was 1991. Now the forests are in deep trouble and we haven't prepared by allocating more funds to control the increasing risk of deadly, massive fires. This is happening in many States, and probably costing way more damage than what it would have taken to stop them from spreading.