Question for the Atheist

[MarkD]

I just wrote I don't want to get into it, but...... the Ten Commandments have their own issues. For example, they're in the Old Testament, and we now have a NEW testament. There's a lot of heinous stuff in the Old Testament, but of course, people like to cherry pick it and claim that some bits still apply. The Ten Commandments are a case in point.

The Ten Commandments present the idea that morality, atonement and transcendence can be accomplished on a paint-by-numbers template. Just follow the steps. Goodness achieved by rule following is only the appearance of goodness and transcendence that must wait until you to die is false. Where the Bible succeeds is through the narrative and the lived example of Jesus. Not literally of course But by carrying your own cross and not getting bogged down in the rule following much beloved by the Pharisees and by being receptive and finding kinship with all rather than looking always to mete out judgement.

Believing there was a day and time when a hugely powerful being stepped through a curtain dividing nature from a realm of infinite, magical possibility is antithetical to Jesus’ example and the force of the narrative. Like you I am an outsider to the Bible except for what has been shared with me by insiders who do not feel their mere assent to doctrine gives them a leg up. As is always the case, those who really know are tempered in their confidence while those who know little are convinced they know it all with certainty.

 

[gruntlabor]

The Ten Commandments present the idea that morality, atonement and transcendence can be accomplished on a paint-by-numbers template. Just follow the steps. Goodness achieved by rule following is only the appearance of goodness ...

I think we all learn what we need to learn by carefully following prescribed steps. I mean, the excellent craftsman carries out each aspect of his trade instinctively, but he had to learn each by rote.

 

[MarkD]

I think we all learn what we need to learn by carefully following prescribed steps. I mean, the excellent craftsman carries out each aspect of his trade instinctively, but he had to learn each by rote.

I don’t entirely disagree. It’s like playing a piece of music. You have to learn how to play the notes, how to play them in order and with what emphasis but so long as your focus remains so narrow you may fail to actually appreciate what you are playing so as to be moved by it.

 

[Gary O']

Honestly, let's not even debate Bible verses and their meaning. Frankly, I'm not qualified, and neither are many of the people who claim to be (I've seen too many instances of so called "preachers" making verses mean whatever they want them to mean in a given circumstance). Preachers, I've found, are the very worst in selling their agenda in a package of re-re-re interpretations of the words of the Bible.

Amen

The churches are the worst
It's where the old man of sin works hardest

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Debate does more harm than good

@VaughanJB
I appreciate your thought filled sincerity
That's huge in this day and age

I'm no scholar either
I know some.....but there is so very much to learn

 

[Mr. Ed]

Sin is a gimmick used to depend on god. I acknowledge god as the creator if indeed god was/is responsible for everything. I don’t worship god I feel god’s presence in the world around me. I am not beholden to god for my life, I live and get by the best I can. I do not give thanks for food at mealtime, food came from the store, but i cannot attribute god for putting it on the table. My idea of god is creator, caretaker and maintainer of world-universe and life. Portraits of god seem to always have a beard, the god I see metphoracly is pure energy and cannot be understood.
Perphaps god’s elusiveness explains why humans don’t know and can only speculate the presence of god.
These discussion alway end up the same, no one knows because no has seen nor has there been a verbal two-way conversation with god. Why is there life and what is our purpose here? Is our purpose to worship god when god was/is a product of mankind’s need to establish and worship the equilivence of god.

 

[gruntlabor]

I don’t entirely disagree. It’s like playing a piece of music. You have to learn how to play the notes, how to play them in order and with what emphasis but so long as your focus remains so narrow you may fail to actually appreciate what you are playing so as to be moved

I assure you, MarkD, I am moved. When, if, finally I master a piece of music I take the most exquisite joy in hearing myself play it.

 

[MarkD]

Sin is a gimmick used to depend on god. I acknowledge god as the creator if indeed god was/is responsible for everything.

Sin has a particularly Christian slant but there is something intrinsic to human nature which captures some of those meanings. There are depths to what it is to be human which transcends our intellect and powers of deliberation. And yet we tend to have little confidence in the deeper knowledge beneath our conscious awareness. The wise person doesn’t have a complete inventory of all that deeper knowledge nor can he command it at all times. But the wise man realizes humility is called for and that allowing more time for reflection is often superior to quick judgement and quicker action.

 

[gruntlabor]

There are depths to what it is to be human which transcends our intellect and powers of deliberation. And yet we tend to have little confidence in the deeper knowledge beneath our conscious awareness. The wise person doesn’t have a complete inventory of all that deeper knowledge nor can he command it at all times. But the wise man realizes humility is called for and that allowing more time for reflection is often superior to quick judgement and quicker action.

Yes, I feel that our elements, our essence understand nature and the universe on many levels, maybe even the quantum. We have the answers within ourselves. In seeking answers I meditate and reflect and sleep on it. In time I'm enlightened. But you said it better than I.

 

[Mr. Ed]

When I found myself, I was seeking enlightenment for the wrong reasons. I wanted power to have an edge over people and rule over them. I remind you I grew up in church, not many friends, moved from town to town. I wanted power to survive and excel beyond community norm. I learned however, enlightenment is not about overpowering friends and community but about giving up or giving to people so they might succeed in life. Not what I expected, giving is much stronger and powerful than taking away from other sources.

 

[Gary O']

the Ten Commandments have their own issues. For example, they're in the Old Testament, and we now have a NEW testament.

The basic belief and understandings is this;
The ceremonial laws of the old testament all pointed to The Christ, and His crucifixion
The prominent (and most obvious one) was the sacrificing of the lambs
Pointing to The Lamb of God, Jesus
They ended at the cross

The moral law (The Ten Commandments) were not destroyed
They contain two laws;
Love God
Love your fellow man

Most governmental laws reflect the last six of the ten
(At least they did....at one time)
Civil laws
Don't kill
Don't steal
etc

As it stands today, not a whole lot is enforced
We're pretty much lawless.....and Godless

 

[Paco Dennis]

The basic belief and understandings is this;
The ceremonial laws of the old testament all pointed to The Christ, and His crucifixion
The prominent (and most obvious one) was the sacrificing of the lambs
Pointing to The Lamb of God, Jesus
They ended at the cross

The moral law (The Ten Commandments) were not destroyed
They contain two laws;
Love God
Love your fellow man

Most governmental laws reflect the last six of the ten
(At least they did....at one time)
Civil laws
Don't kill
Don't steal
etc

As it stands today, not a whole lot is enforced
We're pretty much lawless.....and Godless

That description is very clear and understandable. Thnx! How do you think we as individuals can live those simple commandants "Love God, and love your fellow man".?

 

[spectratg]

We think that our pathetic brains, individually and collectively (all of humanity), can somehow understand/comprehend the vastness of the universe, of reality. We can't.

 

[Gary O']

How do you think we as individuals can live those simple commandants "Love God, and love your fellow man".?

We can take a stab at observing the letter of the law
But, without our Savior in our lives and hearts, it's impossible to keep the spirit of the law

Mathew 5

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

Of late, the withdrawing of The Holy Spirit is most evident

 

[VaughanJB]

The basic belief and understandings is this;
The ceremonial laws of the old testament all pointed to The Christ, and His crucifixion
The prominent (and most obvious one) was the sacrificing of the lambs
Pointing to The Lamb of God, Jesus
They ended at the cross

The moral law (The Ten Commandments) were not destroyed
They contain two laws;
Love God
Love your fellow man

Most governmental laws reflect the last six of the ten
(At least they did....at one time)
Civil laws
Don't kill
Don't steal
etc

As it stands today, not a whole lot is enforced
We're pretty much lawless.....and Godless

Sure, I get it. But it's still cherry-picking. All that death and murder? Bad. All the moral laws? Good. That's dishonest, imo.

The ten commandments are covered by various parts of the New Testament, but that seems to be largely forgotten for the quick reference to the Ten commandments.

 

[Gary O']

Sure, I get it. But it's still cherry-picking.

Guess I'm missing what you mean by 'cherry-picking'
I take it to mean taking texts out of context to prove a misguided point

Not following or understanding yer point(s) @VaughanJB
but
that's OK

I do my best to seek the truths of the Bible by The Bible
'precept upon precept' (Isaiah 28)
Otherwise, it's just vanity
No gain

Right now I'm into the martyrs, specifically Luther's trials and The Diet of Worms
and some excerpts of D'aubigné's voluminous works of that history

fascinating

 

[MarkD]

Guess I'm missing what you mean by 'cherry-picking'
I take it to mean taking texts out of context to prove a misguided point

I think we don't approach ultimate truths in an impartial, dry scientific manner. The truth of what the world means for us is something we are drawn to, not something that pushes us by logic from behind to an inevitable conclusion which should be the same for everyone. It doesn't work like that. What makes the world a meaningful place is something we discover or we don't. But it isn't a simple, obvious matter that should be as obvious as the nose on our face no matter what anyone says. The Bible is an approach with a long history. It isn't my way but it is an honorable one. It isn't cherry picking if it is the one that calls to you.

 

[gruntlabor]

Right now I'm into the martyrs, specifically Luther's trials and The Diet of Worms
and some excerpts of D'aubigné's voluminous works of that history

fascinating

I think one of the first Christian martyr's name was Justin, later called Justin Martyr, ca 100 AD, who described early Christian services. He died a martyr, later made a saint.

 

[Paco Dennis]

Saint Christopher was a must when I was in Junior High. It was the token of going steady with a girl. If she accepted your little charm, she was your promised.

 

[spectratg]

Sin has a particularly Christian slant but there is something intrinsic to human nature which captures some of those meanings. There are depths to what it is to be human which transcends our intellect and powers of deliberation. And yet we tend to have little confidence in the deeper knowledge beneath our conscious awareness. The wise person doesn’t have a complete inventory of all that deeper knowledge nor can he command it at all times. But the wise man realizes humility is called for and that allowing more time for reflection is often superior to quick judgement and quicker action.

Jews invented guilt. Catholics perfected it.

 

[Paco Dennis]

Jews invented guilt. Catholics perfected it.

Haha, that's a clever quip! While it's an oversimplification of complex historical and cultural factors, there is some truth to the notion that Jewish and Catholic traditions have emphasized the importance of guilt and confession as a means of atoning for sins and achieving spiritual growth.

Of course, guilt is a universal human emotion that is not unique to any one religion or culture. But it's interesting to see how different traditions have approached this complex emotion in their own ways.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Will there come a time when all secrets will be revealed?

I don’t know what state or states of awareness there are beyond what is known today but I do not beleive once we die all will be revealed. The dead would need to be omnipotent all knowing and able to be past, present and future.
These are said to be traits of god on that note I beleive god is even though I cannot prove nor explain god’s presence. Can god exist even though the idea cannot be explained or proven? Only what each individual thinks and/or believes makes god credible.
Rather than proving or disproving the existence of god, I support the notion that god is and what that is is defined according to the individual.
Is god real, yes god is real to me but may not be real the same way to every individual.

 

[Paco Dennis]

Ed, have you heard of the book called "The Cloud of Unknowing"? It was written in the 14th century by an anonymous English author.
The book presents the idea that human understanding and language are limited when it comes to experiencing the divine. It suggests that to truly encounter God, one must move beyond the realm of rational thought and enter a state of unknowing—a cloud of unknowing—where the intellect and senses are transcended. It suggests letting go of discursive thoughts and entering into a state of silence and stillness, opening oneself to the divine presence.

It encourages the practitioner to let go of distractions, desires, and preconceived notions about God. It advocates for the use of a simple prayer/mantra word, such as "God" or "Love" or "Om", as a means of centering the mind and turning towards God in a contemplative manner.

Maybe that type of practice would be suited for you. I don't even know if your seeking a practice. Are you?

 

[Gary O']

Maybe that type of practice would be suited for you. I don't even know if your seeking a practice. Are you?

MR Ed has been through hell and back
He carries a lot of luggage

My heart goes out to him

and my prayers go up for him
to experience what The Lord offers;

'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.'
Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Paco Dennis]

MR Ed has been through hell and back
He carries a lot of luggage

My heart goes out to him

and my prayers go up for him
to experience what The Lord offers;

'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.'
Matthew 11:28-30

I guess that's the end of the convo. Your right on Gary!!

 

[davey]

is this the 'cherry pickin' section - can't see any atm ?? - that's alright there are still some about but they are the 'invisible' 'can't be heard or seen ones' t hey are harder to find?