Recollections of the Hiroshima / Nagasaki Bombings

Shalimar said:
Thank you Underock. It appears we share some commonality after all. Would be interesting to see the effects of estrogen based leadership. Testosterone does not have a pleasant record. Lol.
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Hey we both like Shalimar perfume. I don't wear it though. We have already had a number of women running their countries. I I am not that familiar with their internal performance, but I don't recall any declaring war on anybody. We may have one running ours soon. Time will tell.
 

Shalimar said:
Not so. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have left a terrible legacy of birth defects that continue to this day. Also, the war was a six year nightmare for many, not four.
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I must admit especially after seeing the films of the many nuclear tests in the Pacific why they didn't bomb a fleet of ships near the mainland so everyone could see the power of the atomic bomb because I still think this was a demonstration to the Japanese public so their leadership couldn't pull the wool over their head. And again when the US saw the civilian cliff jumpers when they started getting closer to Japan was one of the final straws that made them think the civilian population needed serious convincing.
 
WhatInThe said:
I must admit especially after seeing the films of the many nuclear tests in the Pacific why they didn't bomb a fleet of ships near the mainland so everyone could see the power of the atomic bomb because I still think this was a demonstration to the Japanese public so their leadership couldn't pull the wool over their head. And again when the US saw the civilian cliff jumpers when they started getting closer to Japan was one of the final straws that made them think the civilian population needed serious convincing.
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That's a very interesting thought. I'm not sure the Japanese had any fleet of ships left to bomb. Those bombs were very difficult and expensive to produce. Putting it crudely, I'm sure they wanted to get the most bang for the buck. In addition,
the bomb's effects when dropped on water had not been tested yet.
 

Underock1 said:
Hey we both like Shalimar perfume. I don't wear it though. We have already had a number of women running their countries. I I am not that familiar with their internal performance, but I don't recall any declaring war on anybody. We may have one running ours soon. Time will tell.
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I guess Margaret Thatcher declared war to recover the Falklands.
 
Debby said:
......................

And considering that Japan had been trying to surrender for several months before those bombs were dropped, should there not be a bit more remorse for 120,000 civilians that were killed in two days?

The following link is an actual CIA document and talks about the Japanese 'putting out peace feelers' from January 1945 and on until August when the bombs were dropped. https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol9no3/html/v09i3a06p_0001.htm

And this document from CSIS explains the rational for dropping those things: http://csis.org/blog/understanding-decision-drop-bomb-hiroshima-and-nagasaki


Ending the war at the earliest possible moment - The primary objective for the U.S. was to win the war at the lowest possible cost.


...............
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I'll buy that "feelers" were sent out. But in reality how serious were they and were probably perceived as a way to buy time. And remember all of the Allies had to be appeased along with many of the occupied countries/territories. I always heard Japan wanted south east Asia for natural resources including oil and rubber tree for manufacturing. My guess the reality of those feelers included keeping many of those places. Late 1944, early 1945 were not the only feelers. The US knew this and what Japan really wanted. Don't forget how Germany was left after World War I as well so with a history lesson less than three decades old the US/Allies knew the importance of unconditional surrender.

If you look at the premise of peace feelers for several years of the war Japan's true intentions were much clearer especially to those who made the decision to drop the bombs. Especially looking at the areas occupied by Japan at the time of these feelers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territories_occupied_by_Imperial_Japan

http://rense.com/general72/jee.htm

But a full scale military attack on another country is not going to end well no matter who and the leadership knows this.
 
brianscott said:
Wow. I kind of knew ahead of time that this would be an emotional topic for most people that lived through the events. The assignment is to justify why the bombings were wrong from a first person perspective. Obviously this is going to be difficult to provide citations for but all of your responses will definitely be helpful. I will continue to check back and look forward to reading more. Thank you so much to each of you for your honest opinions and taking the time to reply.
Kyle
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If your premise is that American people AT THE TIME felt that the bombings were wrong, I think it is impossible to support because it simply is not true. People at the time (at least what I have heard from them, and I've heard a lot) felt that the bombings were not only justified, but that they were the only method to end the war in the Pacific theatre and save thousands upon thousands of American lives. It was clear that the emperor had no intentions of ever surrendering, and in light of the continuing Japanese atrocities (well documented, by the way) and the expected Allied losses if a land invasion of Japan was undertaken, the bombs were the best and quickest way to end the war.

I wonder if Japanese people, at the time, felt any regret about bombing Pearl?
 
I wonder just how much the average American knew of what was really going on, other than what they had been told over the radio, basically what the government and military wanted them to know. People now know much more of what is really happening thanks to advanced media technology, yet we still don't know all that much.
 
Shalimar said:
Not so. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have left a terrible legacy of birth defects that continue to this day. Also, the war was a six year nightmare for many, not four.
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Not only birth defects, but three generations of LEUKEMIA!
Only now-this generation-are the Japanese free of this horrible cancer!
 
Underock1 said:
I think we have given Kyle what he was looking for. The feeling at that time was overwhelmingly one of joy at having a four year nightmare come to the end. I'm thinking of all of the horrors inflicted on innocent civilians through out WWII. Why do we not have world wide commemorations, with discussions of the morality of the Rape of Nanking, the bombing of Shanghai, the destruction of Warsaw, the every day systematic use, abuse, and extermination of the conquered populations of every land by both the Japanese and the Germans. The allies were not innocent. The fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo were just as horrific as Hiroshima. The only difference is that Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the suffering for everybody!
,
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So then you approve?

I have to wonder how people would feel if any of these 'wars' ever actually came home to the good ole USA or to Canada? Would the American/Canadian public approve then, of bombs laying waste to (our) country if someone somewhere could point out that 'it ended our participation in the conflict'? How did we all feel the day the Towers came down? And on that point, I'd just mention that I was as transfixed and horrified at that event as anyone else. I can remember standing there in front of the television throughout the day, watching that awful thing as it transpired.

As long as anybody justifies the murder of innocent people, war will continue.
 
Debby said:
So then you approve?

I have to wonder how you would feel if any of these 'wars' ever actually came home to the good ole USA? Would you approve then, of bombs laying waste to your country if someone somewhere could point out that 'it ended your participation in the conflict'? How did you feel the day the Towers came down?

As long as anybody justifies the murder of innocent people, war will continue.
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Debby, I love ya but you are totally naive on this subject. We (the allies) were fighting two different theaters of war. Neither war was started by "the good ole USA". Our resources were stretched to the limits. We or none of our allies were anything even approaching cruel as were the Japanese. The Japanese made no serious peace overtures though they did stall so the could regain steam at the time. You can go on and blame the victim all you want, that is now vogue. No one I know of take any pleasure in the knowledge of these bomb effects but keep in mind this was brand new technology at the time.

To ask how we felt about the terrorist act in New York reflects your lack of sensitivity to it. I hope you aren't suggesting any comparison to the bombings. Contrary to what you seem to think about Americans and your second guessing our actions during WW2, we are one of the most compassionate people in the world. I won't try again to convince you further as it is clear you are resolved in your position. No hard feelings here just disappointment.
 
WhatInThe said:
I'll buy that "feelers" were sent out. But in reality how serious were they and were probably perceived as a way to buy time. And remember all of the Allies had to be appeased along with many of the occupied countries/territories. I always heard Japan wanted south east Asia for natural resources including oil and rubber tree for manufacturing. My guess the reality of those feelers included keeping many of those places. Late 1944, early 1945 were not the only feelers. The US knew this and what Japan really wanted. Don't forget how Germany was left after World War I as well so with a history lesson less than three decades old the US/Allies knew the importance of unconditional surrender.

If you look at the premise of peace feelers for several years of the war Japan's true intentions were much clearer especially to those who made the decision to drop the bombs. Especially looking at the areas occupied by Japan at the time of these feelers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territories_occupied_by_Imperial_Japan

http://rense.com/general72/jee.htm

But a full scale military attack on another country is not going to end well no matter who and the leadership knows this.
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Those 'feelers' were very serious. And the only thing the Japanese asked in return was that their Emperor be spared as the culture at that time saw the Emperor as a divinity. Meetings were held in a couple other countries (I'd have to reread all my links to get the facts exactly straight as it was a while back that I learned about it) including trying to get Stalin as well as the Pope to mediate at one point and in the case of Stalin, right up until almost the end, but all efforts to open discussion were dismissed by Stalin and ignored by the USA. Japan was on it's knees by the time those bombs were dropped which is why they made several attempts. As the following link will show, in June 1945, there was even a telegraph that apparently originated with Emperor Hirohito that indicated a deepening desire for an end to the war. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/Japan_surrender_attempts/MS.html

In all of my readings, I haven't found any mention that Japan had any other 'strings' attached to their attempt to surrender, only that their Emperor be spared, although I do believe at one point the suggestion was made that he would 'depart' while a young son of his would take his place on the throne.

What are you basing your perception of what Japan wanted, on? As you say, it is 'your guess' that Japan had 'conditions'.
 
AZ Jim said:
Debby, I love ya but you are totally naive on this subject. We (the allies) were fighting two different theaters of war. Neither war was started by "the good ole USA". Our resources were stretched to the limits. We or none of our allies were anything even approaching cruel as were the Japanese. The Japanese made no serious peace overtures though they did stall so the could regain steam at the time. You can go on and blame the victim all you want, that is now vogue. No one I know of take any pleasure in the knowledge of these bomb effects but keep in mind this was brand new technology at the time.

To ask how we felt about the terrorist act in New York reflects your lack of sensitivity to it. I hope you aren't suggesting any comparison to the bombings. Contrary to what you seem to think about Americans and your second guessing our actions during WW2, we are one of the most compassionate people in the world. I won't try again to convince you further as it is clear you are resolved in your position. No hard feelings here just disappointment.
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The USA may not have started a war in that instance, but Jim, Japan was trying desperately to surrender and the government of the time ignored them. Numerous telegrams and to no avail because there was an agenda by that time concerning the billion or so dollars spent on the development of those bombs and the desire to impress upon Stalin, just how strong America was and the Japanese people (civilians as usual) paid that price! Japan was done, but America didn't care.

July 8, 1945 Japan approached the Swedes to mediate.
July 12, 1945 Japan telegraphs Moscow, asking them to mediate and that communication was intercepted by America and Truman was informed.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/Japan_surrender_attempts/index.html

and according to the following link, by mid June there had already been 20 communiques sent by Commander Fujimara Yoshikazu, 'encouraging an end to the war'.
http://www.upa.pdx.edu/IMS/currentprojects/TAHv3/Content/PDFs/Operation_Super_Sunrise.pdf

You say Japan made no serious peace overtures, but you are standing on quick sand with that, there is NO documentation that says that anywhere. Quite the contrary, there is documentation that speaks to their efforts to surrender well before those bombs were dropped. https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol9no3/html/v09i3a06p_0001.htm Note that this is a CIA document that attests to their efforts to open up discussion on surrendering.

You suggest that I am insensitive as regards the Towers coming down! Are you serious? Oh my gosh and thank you for judging me on that! And then to suggest that that act of terrorism has no comparison to the terrible suffering that was inflicted on helpless Japanese civilians is absolutely disappointing to me. America (and numerous other citizens from other countries were in those buildings at the time) and America in general, was assaulted (and murdered) and that fact isn't lost at all on me nor does it bring me any pleasure and I'm offended by that inference. And just as innocent civilians suffered and died that day in New York, innocent civilians suffered and died in Japan at the hands of an American government that chose to ignore their overtures for peace.

In fact, if you want to compare who suffered more, New Yorks event saw 3,000 people die while Japan lost 120,000 in their two horrendous events and that doesn't include the people who didn't die immediately and lived on to suffer the effects of burns and radiation poisoning. In fact, the civilian losses in WW2 in the USA was minimal whereas Japanese civilian deaths were 360,000. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/civilian_casualties_of_world_war.htm

As I said before, until we all quit justifying acts of war, it will continue. Unless of course you are willing to concede that you as a voter have next to no influence on the agenda's of all our governments in which case, why do any of us vote? Maybe we should just accept that our governments are doing their own thing and we are all just window dressing to a farce known as 'democracy'.
 
To disagree is not necessarily naive. We are all entitled to our opinions. I believe if the Japanese were white, things would have transpired differently. We did not drop an atom bomb on Germany at any point, how many lives would have supposedly been saved if we had? Of course, the Germans were white, just like us. As for cruelty, read the accounts of Soviet behaviour during the war. Read about the Stalin sanctioned rape of the women of BERLIN FOR TWO WEEKS. SOME OF THEM CHILDREN. Cruelty is a weapon of war and , or, oppresion.Ask the victims of the Raj. War makes victims of us all. It is an abomination, fueled by testosterone. We can no longer afford it's affects/effects. Perhaps it is time for women to exert a more sane influence.
 
Well the student has what he came for, a cross section of opinion. Many of us were here and some of us have gleaned what they have from reading various sources. I find it interesting that the question was asked about how we here felt about the bombing and we were I believe unanimous in our agreement that we supported and support the decision. The only members who do not support it are from other countries and see it differently but they didn't use the bomb, we did.
 
Debby said:
So then you approve?

I have to wonder how people would feel if any of these 'wars' ever actually came home to the good ole USA or to Canada? Would the American/Canadian public approve then, of bombs laying waste to (our) country if someone somewhere could point out that 'it ended our participation in the conflict'? How did we all feel the day the Towers came down? And on that point, I'd just mention that I was as transfixed and horrified at that event as anyone else. I can remember standing there in front of the television throughout the day, watching that awful thing as it transpired.

As long as anybody justifies the murder of innocent people, war will continue.
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One of the reasons we dropped the bomb was to keep the War from coming home to the good ole USA, and stop the killing of our soldiers. When the Japanese attacked Pearl that quiet Sunday morning, they brought us into the war against them, and they should have foreseen that the US would retaliate in the strongest manner possible to the unprovoked attack against our military installation. It was the emperor who should have thought about the justification of the "murder of innocent people" and the probable collateral damage to his citizens. Clearly, he did not. He cast the die, we responded to the "murder of innocent people" at Pearl.

I also dispute your assertion that Japan was "desperately" trying to surrender. It wasn't the Japanese people who were so concerned about the safety of their emperor, it was the emperor, who was arguably the architect of the Japanese activities during the war.

My nearly 90 year old neighbor served in the Navy in the Pacific theater. I was talking to him out in the yard today and asked him if anyone he knew at the time felt the bombings were unjustified. His response was a clear "Hell, no!"
 
Just want to add here, how very completely terrified the average American was after the Japanese attack on their military base. They were so ruled by fear and hatred that it was easy to convince them that the A-bombs on Japan were justified. Of course they have a strong emotional reaction to it, even now. So it stands to reason, that to answer the question about how people feel about the bombings, I suppose most Americans remember feeling very afraid, threatened and very angry, and therefore still believe it was justified.

In Canada, I can't remember anyone here ever telling me how scared they had been of the Japanese, even though we had internment camps here too. I was never in fear as a child that anyone was going to invade, neither the Japanese nor the Russians, and I can't remember any air raid warning practices that were so prevalent in the States in the 50s.

There's nothing more terrifying than suicide bombers, and not to minimalize the impact of the attacks on Pearl Harbour and the threat of Japanese invasion, but in my mind, propaganda by the government and military plays a very big role on how the general population feels/thinks.
 
Cookie said:
In Canada, I can't remember anyone here ever telling me how scared they had been of the Japanese, even though we had internment camps here too. I was never in fear as a child that anyone was going to invade, neither the Japanese nor the Russians, and I can't remember any air raid warning practices that were so prevalent in the States in the 50s.

There's nothing more terrifying than suicide bombers, and not to minimalize the impact of the attacks on Pearl Harbour and the threat of Japanese invasion, but in my mind, propaganda by the government and military plays a very big role on how the general population feels/thinks.
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Though it was nothing like the horror those in other countries experienced, we felt we were in imminent danger. The air raid warnings, blackouts and people volunteering to spot airplanes. Along with the submarine spottings and the frequent air raid exercises in schools, intensified the fear for us in the states. My foremost memories of elementary school were those exercises. Filing down into the school basement halls, crowded together and crouching down...not knowing if it was real or a exercise. If we were to soon hear planes and bombs.
 
I was born in 1949 so I missed all the hoopla.. However, after listening to all my relatives who WERE alive at the time of the N & H bombings and to those that were in the fighting... they were very happy it happened and that it hastened the end of the war in the Pacific.. Next up... were the Nazis.. I am sure at the time no one was concerned with the long term affects of the radiation.. WHY? because no one KNEW about radiation then.. To them it was just a very powerful bomb that saved thousands of American and Allied lives. So Scott... you can scrap your theory that Americans were against it for sure.
 
I feel that one of the aftermaths of the Hiroshima bombings is a nuclear fear. A realization that with a few strategically placed bomb the US, as it is now, could be destroyed. That any survivors would suffer from the after effects for decades. I for one became very fearful during the Cold War, the suspicions about Iraq and now with N. Korea and Pakistan's nuclear technology.
 
Shalimar said:
To disagree is not necessarily naive. We are all entitled to our opinions. I believe if the Japanese were white, things would have transpired differently. We did not drop an atom bomb on Germany at any point, how many lives would have supposedly been saved if we had? Of course, the Germans were white, just like us. As for cruelty, read the accounts of Soviet behaviour during the war. Read about the Stalin sanctioned rape of the women of BERLIN FOR TWO WEEKS. SOME OF THEM CHILDREN. Cruelty is a weapon of war and , or, oppresion.Ask the victims of the Raj. War makes victims of us all. It is an abomination, fueled by testosterone. We can no longer afford it's affects/effects. Perhaps it is time for women to exert a more sane influence.
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We couldn't have dropped the bomb on Germany because the first successful test of the bomb wasn't until right around or after the German surrender. And if the Japanese were white things might have been different including their prisoner treatment of "white" guys. But the Japanese didn't even treat fellow Asians with much respect so being "white" or not being white wasn't an issue. People and countries wanted the war done, finished, no more. To a military with an honor/Samurai culture an expedient conclusion to the war was not possible by conventional means.
 
Debby said:
Those 'feelers' were very serious. And the only thing the Japanese asked in return was that their Emperor be spared as the culture at that time saw the Emperor as a divinity. Meetings were held in a couple other countries (I'd have to reread all my links to get the facts exactly straight as it was a while back that I learned about it) including trying to get Stalin as well as the Pope to mediate at one point and in the case of Stalin, right up until almost the end, but all efforts to open discussion were dismissed by Stalin and ignored by the USA. Japan was on it's knees by the time those bombs were dropped which is why they made several attempts. As the following link will show, in June 1945, there was even a telegraph that apparently originated with Emperor Hirohito that indicated a deepening desire for an end to the war. http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/Japan_surrender_attempts/MS.html

In all of my readings, I haven't found any mention that Japan had any other 'strings' attached to their attempt to surrender, only that their Emperor be spared, although I do believe at one point the suggestion was made that he would 'depart' while a young son of his would take his place on the throne.

What are you basing your perception of what Japan wanted, on? As you say, it is 'your guess' that Japan had 'conditions'.
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I just look at the list of countries and territories occupied by Japan in late 1944/early 1945 and don't see any way their military leadership would glady withdrawal. I'd go so far to say the Samurai culture might have produced a kue or disapprove and/or shame the Emperor so badly that any treaty or agreement would never be signed.

To top it off Japan was still a potential industrial threat. People forget that Japan was the only other country besides the US to field large fleets of aircraft carriers and battleships with some of largest in the world at the time. A treaty without full occupation of Japan and dismantling of their military would not have been acceptable-unconditional surrender means no conditions period, leaving the Emperor is a condition.
 

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