Religion: The views of an agnostic

That was about the time that I, as a true scientist, changed from an atheist to an agnostic. To be an atheist (assertively) one has to have the proof that the deity does not exist. That simply cannot happen.
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I went along with you, CAK, until I got to that sentence. To deny that something exists, one does not have to prove that it doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion that something does exist.

Otherwise, we are in la-la land.
"I believe in the tooth fairy."
"But why? Do you have any objective proof?"
"Well, no, but you don't have any proof that she doesn't exist either."

For many years, I also called myself an agnostic, but finally decided that that was a copout. It was a timid concession that absolutely any religious scenario might exist, just because somebody said it did. So I decided that if I don't believe it, I don't believe it, and it was time to be true to my own convictions.
 

Sunny said:
I went along with you, CAK, until I got to that sentence. To deny that something exists, one does not have to prove that it doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion that something does exist.

Otherwise, we are in la-la land.
"I believe in the tooth fairy."
"But why? Do you have any objective proof?"
"Well, no, but you don't have any proof that she doesn't exist either."

For many years, I also called myself an agnostic, but finally decided that that was a copout. It was a timid concession that absolutely any religious scenario might exist, just because somebody said it did. So I decided that if I don't believe it, I don't believe it, and it was time to be true to my own convictions.
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If you make the statement "God does not exist." it is an assertion and as such needs to be proven.
The agnostic statement "I don't have enough evidence that God exists" though an assertion (on the evidence presence) is not an assertion on the existence (or not) of God.

"I don't believe God exists" is, semantically, different than "I believe God does not exist". The latter needs your proof. As a scientist I cannot assert a negative.
 
Shero said:
I must tell you CAKCy, real fairies ony appear if you believe!
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Nuh-uh! I'm an agnostic, remember? I don't have enough evidence about real fairies existence therefore the hypothesis is: they do not exist. That does not exclude the possibility of them appearing and proving the hypothesis wrong! ;)
 
CAKCy said:
Science hypothesizes on the beginning of life. And that answers your question.

And again: It is very interesting that you use human logic for everything except when it comes to God. For instance: You don't accept Science's hypothesis about the beginning of life based on your logic. But when it comes to God you claim that logic is not enough to explain him/her.

You keep putting "The End" statements after a claim that has no proven validity whatsoever. With the same ease I could say:

The mere presence of ice cream is proof of existence of aliens. Don't look for any logic there. Your logic is not sufficient to explain this.

The end?!
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Thanks for admitting you have no proof. A hypothesis is not proof. And you know that.

Yes I accept human logic for things within the realm of human logic, but realize that God is outside that realm. Sorry you can't understand that. But science also takes things as existing even when their existence has not been proven. Do you believe quarks exist? They have been hypothesized, but not proven.

You "alien/ice cream" analogy is pretty lame. Do better.

Yes, the end.
 
Buckeye said:
Thanks for admitting you have no proof. A hypothesis is not proof. And you know that.

Yes I accept human logic for things within the realm of human logic, but realize that God is outside that realm. Sorry you can't understand that. But science also takes things as existing even when their existence has not been proven. Do you believe quarks exist? They have been hypothesized, but not proven.

You "alien/ice cream" analogy is pretty lame. Do better.

Yes, the end.
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Wow... The credits will never end!!!

I have no proof? A hypothesis is no proof? You are absolutely right!
I take it that you have proof that God exists (other than the... lame "your very existence (and mine) is clear evidence that God does exist."
I don't need to do better. Your "proof" or "evidence" is not any better than this.

The end?! (or are commercials to follow?)
 
raybar said:
My reason for not believing is the complete lack of evidence (to my knowledge) that there exists a god.
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The answer is between your parentheses. Your knowledge is limited. Only God is all knowing aka omniscient.
There is evidence all around us...and within us. Some can see it. Some cannot see it.

I'm really envious that an atheist can have a thread where Christians leave you alone. When Christians have a thread, Atheists are all over us like an army of red ants. Well I guess I just changed that for CAKCy's thread but I'm not here to stay. Thank you CAKCy for the visit.
 
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What difference does it make?

What is the harm in accepting another person’s religious beliefs.

IMO religion is based on faith not proof.

If you can’t believe in God at least believe in The First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
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Lara said:
The answer is between your parentheses. Your knowledge is limited. Only God is all knowing aka omniscient.
There is evidence all around us...and within us. Some can see it. Some cannot see it.

I'm really envious that an atheist can have a thread where Christians leave you alone. When Christians have a thread, Atheists are all over us like an army of red ants. Well I guess I just changed that for your thread but I'm not here to stay. Thank you for allowing me to visit.
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You are allowed to visit and stay for as long as you like. I'm afraid there can't be much of a debate for obvious reasons, but even the flow of ideas and personal experiences is helpful. :)
 
Aunt Bea said:
What difference does it make?

What is the harm in accepting another person’s religious beliefs.

IMO religion is based on faith not proof.

If you can’t believe in God at least believe in The First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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There is no harm whatsoever. And I'm ready to accept anyone's beliefs if they don't try to impose them on me (or anybody else) - Group A :)

And yes, your are absolutely right: Religion is based on faith.

I see no reason for your mentioning "Free Speech"?!
 
Lara said:
The answer is between your parentheses. Your knowledge is limited. Only God is all knowing aka omniscient.
There is evidence all around us...and within us. Some can see it. Some cannot see it.

I'm really envious that an atheist can have a thread where Christians leave you alone. When Christians have a thread, Atheists are all over us like an army of red ants. Well I guess I just changed that for your thread but I'm not here to stay. Thank you for allowing me to visit.
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Yes, my knowledge is limited, just like everyone else. So. I am always looking to learn, and I change my views without hesitation whenever new evidence shows that I'm wrong.

If "there is evidence all around us," I am one of those who don't see it. Would you please give some examples.
 
CAKCy said:
Wow... The credits will never end!!!

I have no proof? A hypothesis is no proof? You are absolutely right!
I take it that you have proof that God exists (other than the... lame "your very existence (and mine) is clear evidence that God does exist."
I don't need to do better. Your "proof" or "evidence" is not any better than this.

The end?! (or are commercials to follow?)
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lol - I can tell you have given up and have conceded the point that you can't prove anything. Logic has failed you. I have no need to convince you of God's existence any more that I need to convince you of the existence of quarks. And in your OP, you said you would rely on logic alone, and would not debate the issue of religion, but yet here you are with ice cream and aliens bs.

And yes, you need to do better.
 
When I was 2, my earliest memory was, "I was aware that a short distance in front of me was a bright light. All around it was darkness." When I was 14, someone read from the bible book of John, 3:16. Somewhere, I saw a sword, held by a hand, as it thrust through curtains and plunged into my heart. I knew it was true.
For me, God is a reality. His Spirit lives in me. I'm not propped up on the theories of others. :)
 
Buckeye said:
lol - I can tell you have given up and have conceded the point that you can't prove anything. Logic has failed you. I have no need to convince you of God's existence any more that I need to convince you of the existence of quarks. And in your OP, you said you would rely on logic alone, and would not debate the issue of religion, but yet here you are with ice cream and aliens bs.

And yes, you need to do better.
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I knew that "The End" would have more sequels than Mission Impossible....

I am an agnostic. I don't need to prove anything. Logic has not failed me at all.
In my OP I said that I wouldn't debate religion with anyone belonging in Group A.
I don't think you do...
Unless you raise the bar of this debate I really think I don't need to do better!

(You missed your "doomsday" statement....)
 
Forerunner said:
When I was 2, my earliest memory was, "I was aware that a short distance in front of me was a bright light. All around it was darkness." When I was 14, someone read from the bible book of John, 3:16. Somewhere, I saw a sword, held by a hand, as it thrust through curtains and plunged into my heart. I knew it was true.
For me, God is a reality. His Spirit lives in me. I'm not propped up on the theories of others. :)
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You won your group! :)
The OP was edited as per your request. Consider yourself a member of Group A1. :)
 
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CAKCy said:
You are allowed to visit and stay for as long as you like. I'm afraid there can't be much of a debate for obvious reasons, but even the flow of ideas and personal experiences is helpful. :)
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raybar said:
Yes, my knowledge is limited, just like everyone else. So. I am always looking to learn, and I change my views without hesitation whenever new evidence shows that I'm wrong. If "there is evidence all around us," I am one of those who don't see it. Would you please give some examples.
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I did read your thread @CAKCy I don't agree of course but it's a good thread. I enjoyed reading it.

@raybar , Here are some examples of evidence you asked for. There is good and evil all around us. Look for the good, for the amazing, for the incredible, for the beautiful, for the magnificent, for the love, for the joy, for the kindness, and you will see God's handiwork. That's evidence and so much more...

You're in California...stare at the ocean, see all the shades of blue and emerald green, see the beauty of the sunrise and sunset, the dolphins jumping playfully out of the water and communicating, the horizon, the stars. Feel the mighty power of the waves, sand under your feet, the ocean breeze, smell the salt air, bend down to touch a starfish and remember the the entire living ecosystem beneath the surface of the water. Take a deep breath and feel good about being alive. Who gave you the nose and lungs to be able to do that? hmm, who is this intelligent designer? A big chaotic bang? A mud puddle? Where did all the energy come from?
 

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