Senior Citizen Who Kills 2 Repeat Intruders with Inherited Gun is Jailed. Home Condemned.

Sunny said:
So, C'est Moi and Butterfly, what if you are walking down the street with your gun in a handy holster, and somebody is walking toward you, looking like a sleazy, suspicious character. He makes eye contact with you. How do you know he is not armed?

Bang!!!
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That's ridiculous, and the conversation is about criminals breaking into a home. But you know that.

Your claim that you were "amused" by your home being robbed sounds absurd. :rolleyes:
 

C'est moi, we were amused by the fact that the jerks left the most valuable item behind, because they didn't recognize a musical instrument case.

Aunt Bea, about the "feeling safe in your home" part, what if the intruder turns out to be a disturbed (or not too bright) kid, or a confused elderly person? Do you still shoot first and ask questions later?
 
I wonder whether people advocating shoot first policies understand how blood thirsty Americans are regarded in other countries.
 

Sunny said:
C'est moi, we were amused by the fact that the jerks left the most valuable item behind, because they didn't recognize a musical instrument case.

Aunt Bea, about the "feeling safe in your home" part, what if the intruder turns out to be a disturbed (or not too bright) kid, or a confused elderly person? Do you still shoot first and ask questions later?
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IMO if a person is capable of entering my locked apartment without my permission they have to be willing to take me as they find me and accept the consequences of their actions.

I find it disturbing that you have more empathy for the criminal than for the victim in a home invasion.
 
Trade said:
I guess I've been lucky in that I have never had anyone break into my house. I've had stuff taken out of my driveway, and my carport and a utility shed. The utility shed burglary consisted of the taking of several fishing outfits. I chalked that one up to Karma resulting from the bait shack burglary that I participated in with some of my friends back in the day. Details can be found under my thread "Trades boring stories" in the diary forum.

One night about 10 years ago while I was up late watching TV there came a knock at my front door around midnight. My first thought was to grab my house gun which at that time was a Model 1911 .45 caliber automatic. But then I thought, nah, you're just being paranoid. So I just looked through the little peephole, saw that it was two women and opened it. They said they had been visiting down the street and left their lights on and now their battery was dead and did I have any jumper cables they could borrow? So I said sure and got in my car drove down to where their's was parked, helped them jump start it and that was the end of it.

Looking back on it, I was stupid. I should have gone to the door armed with my .45. So what if it freaked them out when I answered the door like that? When someone knocks on your door at midnight that's a reasonable response. And seeing through the peephole that it was two women didn't mean much. They could have had a couple of dudes waiting just out of sight to jump me when I opened it. So if that ever happens again I will get my gun first, then go to the door.

Mistake number two was going out to where their car was without my gun. Again, this could have been a set-up. If it ever happens again I will have my gun with me.
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You feel bad because you acted like a normal person would? Don't second guess yourself. You did the right thing.

Well maybe back in the good old days you wouldn't have second thoughts about it. But in this day and age and all the media reporting? It's a different ball game.

I don't live in the U.S. but if I lived there I would definitely have a weapon. Even now here in Canada we are seeing more illegal guns seized mainly from the drug dealers.
 
Warrigal said:
I wonder whether people advocating shoot first policies understand how blood thirsty Americans are regarded in other countries.
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Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your intention with this comment. I'm sorry but is it really meant to be as mean and ugly as it looks? I don't think this thread is at all about "blood thirsty Americans". This victim of breaking and entering...a homeowner in his 60's...was upstairs when intruders came into his home to rob him a second time, they didn't leave when asked to, they continued toward him, and he thought his life was in eminent danger.

Yes, there are incidences of terrorism and mass murders by mentally sick people in our country but that doesn't define "Americans". Our media also doesn't hide anything...actually they often sensationalize it and they often don't report the good news. There are a few responsible News Networks without a chip on their shoulder but they are hard to find.

I know you have made unkind judgmental posts regarding Americans before so I may be super sensitive to your post. For that I apologize if that is indeed the case. And yes, we all do understand the stereotype that some people of other countries have labeled us with. We also have friends in other countries who respect us and appreciate the good things we do.

 
C'est Moi said:
Yep. So potential burglars should consider whether they are ready to meet their maker.
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Yes. Several years ago a father whose son was killed during a home invasion spoke out and said his son should've been punished but didn't deserve to die. I know he was grieving, but I can't help but wonder would he have asked an an intruder inside his home why they were there, if they were armed before defending himself.
 
Does it ever occur to anyone that many folks own guns, have them locked away for safety, usually unloaded, and would have a hell of a time getting to them in time to do any good. I've owned a gun (or guns) since 1945 and never thought of it as a defense weapon. I have no thrill killer instinct , almost hoping for a break-in so I'll get to man up and put him away. The guns that I own have been for hunting, and target shooting but aside from trips to the range, have never, ever carried one around for so called self defense.

I've never had a home break-in or been accosted at home, on the street , or in my travels. The fear is largely in the mind of the individual, many of who dream of the chance to put someone down. If you live in an area where you're constantly being assaulted or your home is under siege by some unknown invaders, it might be time to move. In most parts of this country, your chances of being attacked are nil. The only people needing to live in fear are the regular readers of the NRA's column, "The Armed Citizen". Those poor souls are under constant attack.
 
DaveA said:
I've never had a home break-in or been accosted at home, on the street , or in my travels. The fear is largely in the mind of the individual, many of who dream of the chance to put someone down. If you live in an area where you're constantly being assaulted or your home is under siege by some unknown invaders, it might be time to move. In most parts of this country, your chances of being attacked are nil. The only people needing to live in fear are the regular readers of the NRA's column, "The Armed Citizen". Those poor souls are under constant attack.
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My home isn't in a dangerous area, but it is isolated. I'm the end house down a long gravel road with three houses. The gravel road is connected to a nearby highway by a three mile paved road that winds through wooded hills with no houses along that road. If someone is in my house, they've come through or bypassed all that through the woods, have broken my lock and have somehow silenced the outside watchdog and my little yapping mutt. There are break-ins in rural areas precisely because of the isolation, but the beauty of living in the country far outweighs the risk. Taking sensible precautions such as owning dogs, having a gun handy and being mentally prepared to use it are worth it to me.
 
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AnnieA said:
Mine home isn't in a dangerous area, but it is isolated. I'm the end house down a long gravel road with three houses. The gravel road is connected to a nearby highway by a three mile paved road winding through wooded hills with no houses along that road. If someone is in my house, they've come through or bypassed all that through the woods, have broken my lock and have somehow silenced the outside watchdog and my little yapping mutt. There are break-ins in rural areas precisely because of the isolation, but the beauty of living in the country far outweighs the risk. Taking sensible precautions such as owning dogs, having a gun handy and being mentally prepared to use it are worth it to me.
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Amen. I too live far out in the country and for the same reasons, own and keep a loaded gun handy. Last year, the wife was threatened by some lowlife who found his way up the dead end drive of ours and figured it looked like an easy target. Wife pulled a gun and told him to leave. Fortunately he chose to leave. We have no cell service or land line (we use the internet phone to call for help) where we live and when the sheriff arrived, he told us he'd have no problem with us shooting an intruder. Some people just don't realize that it takes the law on average about 20-30 minutes to respond to a call out here. This all said, we are far from being a "blood thirsty American" and truly take offense at that suggestion. Perhaps people in other countries should turn of the news and try searching the real facts before spouting off.
I have had to kill people while in the service and I hope and pray that my wife never has to live with that feeling, but, choosing between taking a life or possibly giving up your own, there really is only one choice.
 
Lara said:
Please tell me I'm misunderstanding your intention with this comment. I'm sorry but is it really meant to be as mean and ugly as it looks? I don't think this thread is at all about "blood thirsty Americans". This victim of breaking and entering...a homeowner in his 60's...was upstairs when intruders came into his home to rob him a second time, they didn't leave when asked to, they continued toward him, and he thought his life was in eminent danger.

Yes, there are incidences of terrorism and mass murders by mentally sick people in our country but that doesn't define "Americans". Our media also doesn't hide anything...actually they often sensationalize it and they often don't report the good news. There are a few responsible News Networks without a chip on their shoulder but they are hard to find.

I know you have made unkind judgmental posts regarding Americans before so I may be super sensitive to your post. For that I apologize if that is indeed the case. And yes, we all do understand the stereotype that some people of other countries have labeled us with. We also have friends in other countries who respect us and appreciate the good things we do.
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My apologies, Lara. I have spent some time in US many years ago and I found everyone to be generous and friendly and I have admired your leaders when they have acted on the world stage with integrity and principle. It is for this reason that I find it hard to reconcile the many calls for blood made on this forum. It is the shoot first policy that concerns me. No questions asked, no hesitation because someone might be a threat. In the case of a threat to life I can understand it, but a threat to property is very different IMO. To my ears (eyes?} there seems to be a triumphant tone, the same tone I hear when the death penalty is mentioned. It is very chilling to me because it seems so harsh.

Gotta go now but perhaps we could talk more later.
 
I appreciate your apology and welcome your opinion on gun control and on individual use but my post was about your offensive blame, as you used a broad brush to paint a cultural stereotype of Americans by blaring out the offensive term "Blood Thirsty Americans" and "the many calls for blood made on this forum". That's name-calling the American members participating in this thread who just have a different opinion than yours regarding when and how to protect yourself and your family. Disagreeing is okay but name-calling, offending people from other countries, and rudeness is not even allowed on this friendly forum site.

There is a fine line as to when to pull the trigger on a stranger who has entered your home or schoolroom uninvited. It's a split second choice...your life or theirs...30 school children or the intruder's. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion without being called cheap offensive names.
 
You know what Warrigal? It's okay.

I don't think you meant it so strongly. Life is hard and stretches us all.

We all have our moments. And that includes me. It struck a chord but I'm over it *handshake*

It struck a chord because I love my country and my countrymen...with all our warts.
 
Thank you for extending your hand in friendship, Lara. That is most generous of you but you did mistake my meaning. I am trying to think of a way to clarify my intended meaning but everything I think of just seems to make things worse, so I will just leave bad enough alone and apologise once more.
 
I just had a bone-chilling moment of "coincidence" while simply looking for "happy music" to add to my playlist. I like Carole King's "Beautiful" and "I Feel The Earth Move" but the next song of hers was "Smackwater Jack". I loved the familiar upbeat sound but had forgotten what it was about. Then the lyrics started...eerily along the lines of this thread and some recent mass church murders in the news .

Smackwater Jack bought a shotgun because he was "in the mood for a confrontation...so he let loose and shot down his church congregation...and didn't think about the noose". Then, here it comes...

"You can't talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand...when he doesn't want to understand".

That's one point in the column for those on the side of "shoot first"...there's no time to talk and you can't shoot without a gun. There are now parishioners who are trained and carry a gun because churches are targeted. Sad times.
 
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Warrigal and Lara, I agree with you both.

Lara is right, most Americans are not a bloodthirsty tribe out for vengeance, although particular individuals may sound that way at times. Remember, there are many millions of us, occupying every part of the spectrum. Unfortunately, it's always the loudmouths who get all the attention. And as someone on the anti-gun end of the spectrum, I believe the NRA and its followers have had a disproportionate amount of influence on legislation. But I agree with Lara, it's unfortunate if the gun-toting, shootm-up mob come to represent the entire country.

And Warrigal, I also agree with you. The equation of property with human life is used much too often. Or even somebody's split-second perception of an imagined danger. (A young man shot and killed by a security officer because he was reaching for his wallet to show ID? A child or a neighbor who could be confused and wandering into the wrong house? Etc.) Having those damn guns constantly loaded and at the ready makes it much more likely that someone will be shot, who is not any threat to the life or safety of the resident.

I do think too many Americans have watched too many movies of the old-fashioned western variety. And clearly, it is much too easy for the mentally disturbed to legally go into a store and buy any kind of weapon they want. Those facts are obvious to nearly every American.
 
So the NY law says you must allow intruders to kill you before you are allowed to defend yourself with an antique. Accordingly, you can't even hit them with your fists if they are not rgestered with the great stateof NY.
 
I would try to shoot them in the leg, or anywhere below the waist. Or just showing a weapon and just trying to make them wanting to run. if I were living alone and kind of careless about locking up, I would seriously consider getting a gun.
 
Olivia said:
I would try to shoot them in the leg, or anywhere below the waist. Or just showing a weapon and just trying to make them wanting to run. if I were living alone and kind of careless about locking up, I would seriously consider getting a gun.
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Why would you be careless about locking up, then shoot someone who took advantage of your carelessness? Carelessness and gun ownership isn't a good mix.



As for shooting in the leg, if the intruder is armed, that's likely to get you killed. Someone who has broken into your home with intent to rob, rape or worse is already amped up on adrenaline even if they don't have other drugs on board. You're not going to stop someone high on adrenaline and/or drugs unless you hit a vital organ.

Before I even purchased my gun, I took an advanced handgun course. The instructor stressed making sure you only use your gun when threatened--in my case, that's if they've broken into my house or if outside the home, they've made an obvious move to assault me. She also stressed that if you're not prepared to use your gun to actually STOP a person who is a threat to you, then you shouldn't own a gun. She was also very firm about being certain of danger before ever showing your gun. You don't show it until you're at the point you're certain you have to use it and are prepared to stop them which means hitting a vital organ. Hitting a vital organ may or may not be fatal, but it's a risk you have to take if you're using a gun on a person who is threatening you.

I wish every gun owner had to take this woman's class. In addition to discouraging gun ownership without the mindset to use it decisively, she also was very firm about people who should not carry guns including people with fiery tempers (that included her husband), people who are on prescription medications that impact judgement and people who are overly nervous.

Watch this and you'll see that you can put a lot of bullets into a amped up robber without stopping him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEOvJORCczk

About 1:30 in, they've hit him multiple times and he still manages to grab the mom and try to wrestle her gun away.


All that being said, I wish we lived in a world without guns, but we don't.
 
Why would you be careless about locking up, then shoot someone who took advantage of your carelessness? Carelessness and gun ownership isn't a good mix.
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I wouldn't be. That's why I said IF. I NEVER leave any of my doors or windows unlocked ever. But IF I started getting careless because of elderly memory problems I would consider a gun and probably shoot an innocent person, like say as if my home was burning and I didn't know it and a fireman was trying to get me out, If I had a gun under my pillow, I might shoot him. :cool:
 
My son's place was broken into once. It was back when he was in college in North Carolina. He was living in 1/2 of this dumpy duplex off campus and he came home one night and found his door ajar. When he opened the door wider the burglar ran out past him. My son tried to grab the guy as he went out but he was carrying a six pack of beer so the intruder managed to get by him. As the guy was running away my son pulled one of the cans of beer out of the plastic six pack holder and threw it at the guy. It hit him in the shoulder and the guy gave out a yelp but just kept running. But it did mess up his stride enough that he hit the side view mirror of his neighbors pickup truck and broke it as he ran away.

When my son called the cops and reported it the cop that came out said he shouldn't have thrown the beer can at the guy because if he had injured him he would have been in trouble because the guy was running away and not a threat. On top of that his next door neighbor wanted him to pay for fixing his mirror. But my son refused to do that.
 
Sunny said:
So, C'est Moi and Butterfly, what if you are walking down the street with your gun in a handy holster, and somebody is walking toward you, looking like a sleazy, suspicious character. He makes eye contact with you. How do you know he is not armed?

Bang!!!
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That is an entirely different scenario. Walking down the street is far different than someone forcing his way into your home.
 
US gun deaths per 100,000 population: 120
Australia gun deaths per 100,000 population: 13

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?
 

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