Some parents trying to rationalize drug use legal or illegal.

StarSong said:
There's no mystery about why there's such a big market for mind/body altering substances. People use (legal and illegal) drugs, alcohol, tobacco, etc., because they're pleasurable.

Animal studies clearly demonstrate that other species will imbibe when given the opportunity. Mice show preference for cocaine, for instance, over mating or food. Indeed, they'll literally starve to death rather than opting for food over coke.
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Honestly - I don't think that's it. I mean sure, people take things to feel good, but when you look at the true problem areas, such as Philli's Kensington, it's all about addiction, death, and with no pleasure at all.

There was a famous experiment with rats and morphine in the 1970's. I think it's very interesting:

Rat Park - Wikipedia
 
Pepper said:
BECAUSE
Life sucks and then you die.
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The environment has a lot to do with it. I stated earlier that I have never smoked weed, etc. But for the record, if I had as a youth my father would have beat the living hell out of me. I didn't live in a drug area, and while I have to assume drugs were out there somewhere, I have no idea where they would have been.

Compare that with today. Kids growing up with addicted parents, perhaps living on the streets. No jobs, and if they get a job it doesn't pay enough. A failing education system. A judicial system that will never, ever, be able to build enough cells. I could go on. I believe our society is aiding the creation of these problems.
 
Pepper said:
Is that a question or statement? Anyway, Yes, Joey, yes we have.
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But it's not about eradicating all drugs, or all substances that alter our minds. Some of those drugs have legitimate uses in medical terms. Besides, if someone wants to smoke weed after a hard days work, then is it really a problem? Same with alcohol.

So called "drugs" is a problem when you get to the addictive substances, the self-destructive ones. Lots of people drink alcohol, but it's the ones who damage their bodies, destroy their lives and the lives of people around them, that are the problem.
 
VaughanJB said:
The environment has a lot to do with it. I stated earlier that I have never smoked weed, etc. But for the record, if I had as a youth my father would have beat the living hell out of me. I didn't live in a drug area, and while I have to assume drugs were out there somewhere, I have no idea where they would have been.

Compare that with today. Kids growing up with addicted parents, perhaps living on the streets. No jobs, and if they get a job it doesn't pay enough. A failing education system. A judicial system that will never, ever, be able to build enough cells. I could go on. I believe our society is aiding the creation of these problems.
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Please quit blaming the system. You may not live in a drug area because you do not know about it.
 
Pepper said:
Is that a question or statement? Anyway, Yes, Joey, yes we have.
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can be all things to all men/women and all the in-betweens -
VaughanJB said:
But it's not about eradicating all drugs, or all substances that alter our minds. Some of those drugs have legitimate uses in medical terms. Besides, if someone wants to smoke weed after a hard days work, then is it really a problem? Same with alcohol.

So called "drugs" is a problem when you get to the addictive substances, the self-destructive ones. Lots of people drink alcohol, but it's the ones who damage their bodies, destroy their lives and the lives of people around them, that are the problem.
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you mean like alcohol and cigarettes??
 
VaughanJB said:
So called "drugs" is a problem when you get to the addictive substances, the self-destructive ones. Lots of people drink alcohol, but it's the ones who damage their bodies, destroy their lives and the lives of people around them, that are the problem.
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Exactly.

Degree and context.
 
VaughanJB said:
Honestly - I don't think that's it. I mean sure, people take things to feel good, but when you look at the true problem areas, such as Philli's Kensington, it's all about addiction, death, and with no pleasure at all.

There was a famous experiment with rats and morphine in the 1970's. I think it's very interesting:

Rat Park - Wikipedia
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This was a single, small study with some problems, as stated in the Wikipedia link you gave. Explanation below.

Even so, there's little doubt that people living in difficult circumstances may find drugs more appealing.

Slums all over the world (including Philadelphia's Kensington area) are typically loaded with illegal activity, drug dealing included. It takes massive political will and plenty of money to solve solve the multilayered problems in slums: poor schools, apathetic students, generational gang membership, dangerous neighborhoods, low job opportunities, etc.

I don't know of any governments Singapore aside (AKA Disneyland with the Death Penalty), with zero slums or drug problems.

From the article:

Replication​

Bruce Petrie (1996), a graduate student of Alexander's, attempted to replicate the study and correct for the original studies on 20 rats using two different methods for measuring morphine consumption between conditions (which introduced a potential confound).[6] The study was not able to replicate the results, and the author suggested that strain differences between the rats Alexander's research group used could be the reason for this.[6]

There has been little subsequent interest in replicating the studies due to several methodological issues present in the originals.[14] Issues included the small number of subjects used, the use of oral morphine, which does not mimic actual conditions of use (and introduces a confound because of the bitterness of morphine), and the measurement of morphine consumption, which differed between conditions. Other problems included equipment failures, lost data and rat deaths. However, some researchers have shown an interest in "conceptual" replication to continue exploring the contribution of environmental and social enrichment to addiction.[14]
 
StarSong said:
Even so, there's little doubt that people living in difficult circumstances may find drugs more appealing.
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How can, to some extent, it not be environmental? We credit well rounded people to a good upbringing, how can we not suggest a flawed person is often about a poor upbringing?

As a society, we must have some impact. If the goal is money money money, success success success, doesn't that demand those who achieve, and those that don't? The environment matters. Both on a macro (cities) to micro (home) level. I know I have some flaws, and I can trace them back to early childhood. It matters.

People talk about personal success and achievement. I think that's become part of the problem. It's selfish. Perhaps we should have been thinking of the wider picture all along?
 
VaughanJB said:
We credit well rounded people to a good upbringing, how can we not suggest a flawed person is often about a poor upbringing?
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Ay, there's the rub. Well rounded people are sometimes brought up in dreadful circumstances, with many kids who "rise above their raising." Also plenty of very good upbringings somehow produce ne'er do wells. Stories abound about families in which all offspring thrived except one who followed a bad path starting in HS or university.

There's a larger game afoot with drug and alcohol addictions/abuse than upbringings and/or environments. Those can be factors, for sure, but plenty growing up in healthy, middle and upper class environments get ensnared.
 
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VaughanJB said:
How can, to some extent, it not be environmental? We credit well rounded people to a good upbringing, how can we not suggest a flawed person is often about a poor upbringing?

As a society, we must have some impact. If the goal is money money money, success success success, doesn't that demand those who achieve, and those that don't? The environment matters. Both on a macro (cities) to micro (home) level. I know I have some flaws, and I can trace them back to early childhood. It matters.

People talk about personal success and achievement. I think that's become part of the problem. It's selfish. Perhaps we should have been thinking of the wider picture all along?
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Early childhood is when for you?

We cannot blame everything on society and upbringing. At some point we are in charge of and responsible for our actions and the reactions they cause.
 
StarSong said:
Ay, there's the rub. Well rounded people are sometimes brought up in dreadful circumstances, with many kids who "rise above their raising." Also plenty of very good upbringings somehow produce ne'er do wells. Stories about about families in which all offspring did well except one who followed a bad path starting in HS or university.

There's a larger game afoot with drug and alcohol addictions/abuse than upbringings and/or environments. Those can be factors, for sure, but plenty growing up in healthy, middle and upper class environments get ensnared.
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Which is, partly, due to culture. A culture where taking drugs to have a good time has been normalized. The entire values of our society have changed. For no good reason, let's look at politicians. We elect people who have been convicted of many crimes today. In the past, this couldn't have happened. We (overall society) simply no longer care. And in that space, drugs flourish.
 
Twostep said:
Early childhood is when for you?

We cannot blame everything on society and upbringing. At some point we are in charge of and responsible for our actions and the reactions they cause.
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No-one is blaming "everything" on society and upbringing. However, is it purely coincidence that someone with addicted parents, living in places where drug use has been normalized and common, also take drugs for recreation?

Individual choice is certainly a thing. But what I feel needs to be better understood is that our choices are based on available options.
 
VaughanJB said:
No-one is blaming "everything" on society and upbringing. However, is it purely coincidence that someone with addicted parents, living in places where drug use has been normalized and common, also take drugs for recreation?

Individual choice is certainly a thing. But what I feel needs to be better understood is that our choices are based on available options.
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Please back to my original question. Thank you.
 
VaughanJB said:
Which is, partly, due to culture. A culture where taking drugs to have a good time has been normalized. The entire values of our society have changed. For no good reason, let's look at politicians. We elect people who have been convicted of many crimes today. In the past, this couldn't have happened. We (overall society) simply no longer care. And in that space, drugs flourish.
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While I'd love to agree on this, drugs have flourished for centuries. The Opium Wars started 200 years ago.
 
VaughanJB said:
Yes, you're correct. But I don't think the question is a zero sum game. We will, as a species, always reach out to mind altering drugs. I think that's a given. But drugs to the level of destruction? I'm not so sure.
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True. Problem is, creative scientists keep designing stronger, more addictive drugs. A game of whack-a-mole, for sure. Parenting gets more dicey with each new generation.
 
StarSong said:
True. Problem is, creative scientists keep designing stronger, more addictive drugs. A game of whack-a-mole, for sure. Parenting gets more dicey with each new generation.
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Which again gets down to some simple truths. Us oldsters are out of touch. Today, kids grow up in a far more lax drug environment. In the UK and US in 2024, alcohol sales were down. Yet people still got high. The availability question isn't really the argument - we lost that one as a society. We need better solutions.
 

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