Space As An Entity ?

[PeppermintPatty]

Your thoughts?

 

[ohioboy]

Matter is anything that has weight or Mass, and occupies space. So yes.

 

[bobcat]

Well, if you're defining an entity as something that exists separately as an independent thing, then my view is that energy is an entity, and it infuses itself into all we can detect. Where it came from, no one really knows, including those who dabble in the field of speculative physics. Many would surmise that energy essentially came from nothing (Quantum fluctuations that pop into and out of existence). However, all that proves is that they clearly don't have a fundamental understanding of the word "nothing", which means the absolute absence of everything. No quantum fluctuations, no physics, no laws, no elemental particles, and no events.

That being the case, energy must have been around before the Big Bang, and possibly ultimately forever. As to whether that energy has any creative quality to it is something we may never know, but when I look at how life can come from atoms that aren't alive, the balance of nature, the DNA molecule, and consciousness, and many other aspects of the universe, I tend to think it does, but it's just my view.

 

[Pepper]

Do you mean, PP, that it is a conscious intelligence?

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Do you mean, PP, that it is a conscious intelligence?

Yes, I mean that it’s conscience intelligence

It’s thought by many that all life occupies this Entity Space in order to become a presence in relativity.

Humanity, approximately 8.1 billion occupiers of this entity and without this entity , no life would exist in this universe.

Space is the FIELD or ENTITY in which the immaterial intangible intelligence - the very essence of spirit becomes manifest or becomes localized into the relative
continuum.

I think this is an interesting topic that doesn’t involve politics.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

Well, if you're defining an entity as something that exists separately as an independent thing, then my view is that energy is an entity, and it infuses itself into all we can detect. Where it came from, no one really knows, including those who dabble in the field of speculative physics. Many would surmise that energy essentially came from nothing (Quantum fluctuations that pop into and out of existence). However, all that proves is that they clearly don't have a fundamental understanding of the word "nothing", which means the absolute absence of everything. No quantum fluctuations, no physics, no laws, no elemental particles, and no events.

That being the case, energy must have been around before the Big Bang, and possibly ultimately forever. As to whether that energy has any creative quality to it is something we may never know, but when I look at how life can come from atoms that aren't alive, the balance of nature, the DNA molecule, and consciousness, and many other aspects of the universe, I tend to think it does, but it's just my view.

You explained that incredibly well. Energy must have been around before the Big Bang and possibly forever. I think we DO know it has ‘creative’ energy. It’s not only creative but extremely intelligent. When we plant an apple seeds we don’t get an orange tree. Even the very topic of DNA ‘appears’ almost miraculous.

Every living thing seems to have an instinctive intelligence system

 

[David777]

No.

But panpsychism is an old theory of philosophers without physical science support.

Wikipedia
In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that the mind or a mind like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It is also described as a theory that "the mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe".

Similar to theories of god is everywhere omniscience, Mumbo Jumbo. Personally as someone studying physics and neuroscience, I lean towards our animal creature minds as not being our actual fleshly brain neural systems (an impedance container) but rather the oscillating standing wave electromagnetic (EMC) brain wave fields within. But that requires a container to contain the EMC.

The Catholic church teaches God is a Holy Trinity of 3 persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Quite controversial among different Christian denominations that tend to argue over such as though that was important. What the Bible says about the issue is indirect and very limited as though we humans were not given details or a scientific explanation. And that was probably for similar reasons we were not given an explanation on the nature of spirit or angels.

To do so obviously would require more science understanding than primitive peoples might understand and would violate their prime directive. Those creating dogma on the issue wrestle with primitive notions of that concept but is anthropomorphic nonsense. As though limitations of human earth creatures bears on the subject. In fact, it is a stupid mistake for those considering that and other facets of what God and spirit are by doing so from the perspective of humans.

Exodus 40:34-38 relates God's presence above the Tabernacle:
Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle ... And throughout all their journeys whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the sons of Israel would set out; but if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not set out until the day when it was taken up ... the cloud of the Lord was on the tabernacle by day, and there was fire in it by night...

The above relates God’s nature as or within a cloud matrix... A cloud nature does interestingly align with possible mysterious ideas of spirit nature.

It may be possible given the bipolar nature of H2O water molecules in a universe with other forms of mass and energy beyond what we can yet science sense given the immense empty space to a Planck level, much like as yet science unexplainable dark matter and energy, that there could be much smaller structured matter/energy within water molecules that act intelligently (Holy Spirit) like a bunch of synchronized intercommunicating drones now popular with Fourth of July like fireworks displays.

 

[Paco Dennis]

"It is the empty space which makes the bowl useful. Cut out windows and doors; It is the empty space which makes the room useful."

Tao Te Ching

It has existence, but no consciousness. IMO

 

[PeppermintPatty]

"It is the empty space which makes the bowl useful. Cut out windows and doors; It is the empty space which makes the room useful."

Tao Te Ching

It has existence, but no consciousness. IMO

What a great answer.
It’s the silence between the notes that makes the music

 

[PeppermintPatty]

No.

But panpsychism is an old theory of philosophers without physical science support.

Wikipedia
In the philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that the mind or a mind like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. It is also described as a theory that "the mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe".

Similar to theories of god is everywhere omniscience, Mumbo Jumbo. Personally as someone studying physics and neuroscience, I lean towards our animal creature minds as not being our actual fleshly brain neural systems (an impedance container) but rather the oscillating standing wave electromagnetic (EMC) brain wave fields within. But that requires a container to contain the EMC.

The Catholic church teaches God is a Holy Trinity of 3 persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Quite controversial among different Christian denominations that tend to argue over such as though that was important. What the Bible says about the issue is indirect and very limited as though we humans were not given details or a scientific explanation. And that was probably for similar reasons we were not given an explanation on the nature of spirit or angels.

To do so obviously would require more science understanding than primitive peoples might understand and would violate their prime directive. Those creating dogma on the issue wrestle with primitive notions of that concept but is anthropomorphic nonsense. As though limitations of human earth creatures bears on the subject. In fact, it is a stupid mistake for those considering that and other facets of what God and spirit are by doing so from the perspective of humans.

Exodus 40:34-38 relates God's presence above the Tabernacle:
Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle ... And throughout all their journeys whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the sons of Israel would set out; but if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not set out until the day when it was taken up ... the cloud of the Lord was on the tabernacle by day, and there was fire in it by night...

The above relates God’s nature as or within a cloud matrix... A cloud nature does interestingly align with possible mysterious ideas of spirit nature.

It may be possible given the bipolar nature of H2O water molecules in a universe with other forms of mass and energy beyond what we can yet science sense given the immense empty space to a Planck level, much like as yet science unexplainable dark matter and energy, that there could be much smaller structured matter/energy within water molecules that act intelligently (Holy Spirit) like a bunch of synchronized intercommunicating drones now popular with Fourth of July like fireworks displays.

Sorry but this thread has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Zip! zilch. Nada. I won’t disrespect you by calling it Mumbo Jumbo though.

When atoms are broken down the smallest particles are called quarks. These quarks cannot be broken down any smaller or destroyed. They are the excitation of the quantum field that corresponds to them. The matter is made up of quarks, which are a sort of particles. These particles contain energy that cannot be destroyed

There’s intelligence in the wave of particles
Where did the intelligence come from?

Maybe this cosmic intelligence is what ‘some’ refer to as God.

 

[David777]

As the wikipedia article relates, panpsychism is old philosophical nonsense. Any thread on this board is OPEN for reasonable explanations whether someone including OPs dislikes its politics, science, or religion, or not. I used those religious inputs to show beyond panpsychism, there are actual ideas about intelligence in spacial locations beyond bodies that vast numbers of humans apparently believe in that are in fact possibly though in the extreme, based on similar ideas.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

As the wikipedia article relates, panpsychism is old philosophical nonsense. Any thread on this board is OPEN for reasonable explanations whether someone including OPs dislikes its politics, science, or religion, or not. I used those religious inputs to show beyond panpsychism, there are actual ideas about intelligence in spacial locations beyond bodies that vast numbers of humans apparently believe in that are in fact possibly though in the extreme, based on similar ideas.

I think in any conversation nobody should be disrespecting and putting down other people’s viewpoints. The first time it was mumbo jumbo I was apparently talking about, the second time it’s philosophical nonsense. Surely you can make your point without rudely discrediting the other persons post.

 

[AnnieA]

I think in any conversation nobody should be disrespecting and putting down other people’s viewpoints. The first time it was mumbo jumbo I was apparently talking about, the second time it’s philosophical nonsense. Surely you can make your point without rudely discrediting the other persons post.

I wouldn't take the depreciating language personally. From recent interactions, I don't think he's interested in a civil exchange but does enjoy unopposed presentation.

 

[David777]

Panpsychism may not seem science nonsense to you, but that is how I would correctly describe it that is not about being "rude" or "putting down" but rather the dominant science perspective of many philosophical ideas without any science basis that don't necessarily require detailed explanation in casual web discussions like this. Some members herein also believe in ghosts that one could also simply describe as science nonsense.

And @AnnieA is apparently irritated about my response to one of her recent posts on one of my threads that I clearly made a full effort to pleasantly explain but did not agree to change the way she wanted.

 

[AnnieA]

Back to the OP. I could never express it as well as @bobcat 's last sentence, but yes.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

I wouldn't take the depreciating language personally. From recent interactions, I don't think he's interested in a civil exchange but does enjoy unopposed presentation.

You’re absolutely right. I shouldn’t.
It’s past my bedtime and I’m tired and clearly a tad grouchy. lol

 

[Naturally]

Space is nothing and there are those who will make something out of nothing and tell you all about it.
However, space is a necessary essence or entity if you will. It occupies the distance between molecules.
Without space, the whole of the universe would be a dense solid mass ... of what I'm not sure.
And if space is an entity, perhaps so is time. Time keeps everything from happening at once.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

And if space is an entity, perhaps so is time. Time keeps everything from happening at once.

I think so. Time is there to stop everything from happening at once. How would we learn our lessons if we had no actual time.

Panpsychism may not seem science nonsense to you, but that is how I would correctly describe it that is not about being "rude" or "putting down" but rather the dominant science perspective of many philosophical ideas without any science basis that don't necessarily require detailed explanation in casual web discussions like this. Some members herein also believe in ghosts that one could also simply describe as science nonsense.

And @AnnieA is apparently irritated about my response to one of her recent posts on one of my threads that I clearly made a full effort to pleasantly explain but did not agree to change the way she wanted.

David, I’m not sure if it’s panpsychism. I’m merely human and think this subject is far beyond my level of understanding. The other day when I couldn’t get on this site, I dropped into another site that had this as a topic.

I don’t see why God and science have to be opposing viewpoints. All matter when broken down to its smallest form are dancing particles with some type of intelligience.
To me I find this miraculous which really IS my main viewpoint.

My post isn’t political and doesn’t even try to discriminate the existence of God. I’m not sure why you felt the need to discredit what I wrote and more to the point, disrespectfully.

You can respectfully disagree with my questioning as can I, yours.

Anyway, it’s another day and I shall disregard what happened yesterday.

 

[Mr. Ed]

To determine space one must be devoid of all walls and boundaries. However, there must be boundaries that contain space like a bowl of water. Looking across the universe there are spaces and there are not. How do you determine if you are in a space or something else yet to be discovered? Do you need to witness or be apart of something to know what is/is not?

 

[PeppermintPatty]

To determine space one must be devoid of all walls and boundaries. However, there must be boundaries that contain space like a bowl of water. Looking across the universe there are spaces and there are not. How do you determine if you are in a space or something else yet to be discovered? Do you need to witness or be apart of something to know what is/is not?

Great questions Mr. Ed.

 

[bobcat]

Space is nothing and there are those who will make something out of nothing and tell you all about it.
However, space is a necessary essence or entity if you will. It's the distance between molecules.
Without space, the whole of the universe would be a dense solid mass ... of what I'm not sure.
And if space is an entity, perhaps so is time. Time keeps everything from happening at once.

You may find this article interesting about space being "nothing". Sometimes what seems like nothing is really something.

What do physicists mean when they talk about nothing?

 

[PeppermintPatty]

You may find this article interesting about space being "nothing". Sometimes what seems like nothing is really something.

What do physicists mean when they talk about nothing?

Nice find Bob. I like the way you think also.
Reading this certainly gives a lot of substance to the word nothing. Sometimes I watch space documents where they explain all this but it’s usually too far over my head. That question and answer link is so helpful. The questions were great, the answers even better. Gracious.

 

[David777]

Thank you PP for your thoughtful explanation. In kind, I hope this helps you understand my own intended perspective attempt,

I suppose you interpreted my logical use of the term "nonsense" differently than the way I normally use the term or intended as a science person because it has obviously been co-opted in ordinary casual conversation sometimes to include a negative emotional connotation of possibly being a bit stupid ignorant thought. As such, that tells me if so, I would be wiser in the future, thank you, to instead pose such as I originally did in my first post, "without physical science support", despite that being more tedious to fully write out.

I also can understand why you would consider your explanation from reading about "dancing matter" since that involves EMC fields pervasively across space especially molecular heat radiation, to be a reasonable way to connect that to the existence of some universal intelligence. But my own response would be even with extreme imagination of what could be possible, IMO, that is likely to never have any physical science support.

As to "I don’t see why God and science have to be opposing viewpoints". Quite strongly agree, at least where they can. That tells me you also didn't interpret my input about "Holy Trinity" as I intended that was not about "opposing viewpoints" from my own perspective but rather is an example commonly held by myriad people, of what I see as "Space as an Entity" that I attempted to elaborate about including scripture that points so, that few others would ever notice. And then also that doesn't bear on your thread topic, explained the way religious anthropomorphic dogma otherwise views it. ...David

 

[PeppermintPatty]

@David777 - I don’t think I gave your post the consideration it desired. To be brutally honest, I have to read your posts over many times to try and understand what you’re saying. I understand why you add biblical verses where you did. For some reason I thought you were opposed to the idea of space as an entity. We really don’t have opposing views. It’s my misunderstanding.

Thank you for sharing your views about it

 

[Naturally]

The way I see it is that space is nothing.
There are energies, forces, gases, liquids and solids that move through space but at no time are they "space".
I also find it laughable when said that space is expanding.
Space is infinite. No alpha and no omega. How can it expand? Impossible to be larger than infinite.
Perhaps energies, forces and "entities" (with no given name yet), create distance between other "entities", but that has no affect on "space".
Space doesn't care because space is nothing and can't be measured. For that you would need distance, a numerical or occasionally qualitative measurement of how far apart things or points are.

Debates concerning the nature, essence and the mode of existence of space date back to antiquity.
And disagreements continue between philosophers over whether space itself an entity, a relationship between entities, or part of a conceptual framework.