VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I don't blame you. I only pointed it out to illustrate that being a signatory to UNDHR, 1948 doesn't mean a whole lot.
The fast-food industry claims minimum wage law is costing jobs. Its numbers are fake
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
I don't blame you. I only pointed it out to illustrate that being a signatory to UNDHR, 1948 doesn't mean a whole lot.
That neatly sidesteps the the old adage of a a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.
JBR
Senior Member
Well, it's true... sometimes one's dreams are impossible. On the other hand, when I was a teenager doing paid work I know what I was paid in my first years was significantly below whatever "minimum wage" may have been. Was I cheated? I don't think so, I was just getting my feet wet in the world of work.
It doesn't mean a lot but it is an indicator of the prevailing attitude towards industrial relations. I think that we're aware of a certain corporation which shut down a franchise that wanted to become unionised.
Being unskilled doesn't mean sacrificing a living wage, covering home, food, medical, and maybe a tiny bit extra? Some people are not able to acquire more skills. They can't. They have the average IQ of ninety, which by the way, has sunk decade by decade. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to afford living.
One of the issues with fast food in particular is that alot of the locations are franchises so even though the national company has good financials the local franchise owner might not have the same. It could be more or less.
I seen local franchise not honor national promotions and coupons(they're supposed to) because they lose too much money. I think they wound up in lawsuits with customers and/or the national company.
Location matters too with some making money of high volume but low margins and others off of less volume higher margins. There's definitely corporate greed out there but is that THE case here?
I seen local franchise not honor national promotions and coupons(they're supposed to) because they lose too much money. I think they wound up in lawsuits with customers and/or the national company.
Location matters too with some making money of high volume but low margins and others off of less volume higher margins. There's definitely corporate greed out there but is that THE case here?
Jules
SF VIP
Where is this?
Knight
Well-known Member
Maybe deciding if a job at a fast food place is meant to be a living wage as defined.
What is the UN definition of a living wage?
The International Labour Organization has just agreed a formal definition for a living wage and endorsed living wage policies. Living wages aim to give workers a decent standard of living and enough pay to afford basic needs like food and housing.Apr 9, 2024
Or an entry level job
What does entry level mean? Entry level is a type of job that typically requires minimal education, training and experience. Entry-level jobs are available in every industry.
My view
An entry level job that can be replaced by robotics should be a clue as to the value of the cost of labor.
What is the UN definition of a living wage?
The International Labour Organization has just agreed a formal definition for a living wage and endorsed living wage policies. Living wages aim to give workers a decent standard of living and enough pay to afford basic needs like food and housing.Apr 9, 2024
Or an entry level job
What does entry level mean? Entry level is a type of job that typically requires minimal education, training and experience. Entry-level jobs are available in every industry.
My view
An entry level job that can be replaced by robotics should be a clue as to the value of the cost of labor.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
I think that's the Federal law. This is amended by each state, which is why is varies from place to place.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
That's a value to the business, perhaps. But minimum wage goes farther than that. Minimum wage aims to bring a minimum level of wage for existing in a given society. As such, if a business can't or won't pay that, then they have no value to the society and can go elsewhere without any great loss. By definition, paying less than minimum wage means it's not enough to live on, that's not useful in the big picture.
Knight
Well-known Member
I don't think this is about NOT paying a minimum wage. I think it's about weather or not the $20.00 min wage set by the state is negativly impacting jobs. The article in the Op's post cited no problem with closings or job loss from Jan. to Mar. A little deceiving since the $20.00 increase didn't start until April.
Not explained in the article. How many are working part time and counted as full time employees. Numbers can be manipulated to reflect whatever the article author wants to present.
When it comes to wages An entry level firefighter starting at $26.00 an hour seems a little small compared to an entry level fast food employee at $20.00.
Entry Level Firefighter Salary in California
Yearly
Monthly
Weekly
Hourly
Table View
California Average
$28,127$53,886 /year$98,691
$26 /hour
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Firefighter-Salary--in-California
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
We disagree, I guess. For me, if it negatively impacts jobs, then there were too many jobs out there that didn't allow people to live a minimal existence. We have a burgeoning homeless crisis right now, what help are jobs that don't pay enough for housing and food? None as far as I can tell. Society has no use for such jobs.
What happens is that these people have to go on social programs etc., which is our tax money going to fund employers who won't pay what's needed.
hollydolly
SF VIP
- Location
- London England
$20 dollars US is equal to £15.78...
In the Uk the minimum wage for over 21's is just £11.44 which equates to $14.50 ..under 20's and under 18's much less .. and the under 20's make up the vast majority of Fast food staff
In the Uk the minimum wage for over 21's is just £11.44 which equates to $14.50 ..under 20's and under 18's much less .. and the under 20's make up the vast majority of Fast food staff
| Age 21 or over (National Living Wage) | £11.44 |
| Age 18 to 20 | £8.60 |
| Under 18 | £6.40 |
| Apprentice | £6.40 |
dilettante
Well-known Member
- Location
- Michigan
For the well-heeled it's not about outrunning the bear, they just need to outrun you. So they push for elevated wages at the bottom as they push for higher prices. The whole idea is to suppress the middle class while buying political power through bread and circuses doled out to the working poor they've duped.
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
Hm, I'm not seeing that.
A business will push for the highest price the market will support and sustain. There is no limit, there's simply a market.
But with minimum wage, we're talking about paying enough for basic existence within a society. How is that duping the working poor?
papa tiger
Well-known Member
Fast food has started to taste lousy. Pretty sure its glued meat now cut to assume the correct appearance.
Pork, especially Beef even Roast beef sandwiches are chewy even Rubens. Some cuds aren't safely swallowed
and just spit out on the plate. Rolled Meat glued and sawed, cause steak knives can't cut them. It doesn't
look right on the plate or sammich and smells slightly wrong too.
Pork, especially Beef even Roast beef sandwiches are chewy even Rubens. Some cuds aren't safely swallowed
and just spit out on the plate. Rolled Meat glued and sawed, cause steak knives can't cut them. It doesn't
look right on the plate or sammich and smells slightly wrong too.
Brookswood
Senior Member
And the question of who or what decides what is fair has to be addressed.
Right now the answer is that “fair” is decided by our political system. That’s why we have laws that specify minimum wages, overtime pay, break requirements, etc. We, usually through our elected representatives, have made these decisions.
But, that does not take into account alternatives that eliminate the need for human labor. How anybody can balance all factors to yield the greatest overall good to our society is beyond me.
There is a Story about GM building a new mechanized car factory full of robotics. The factory manager takes the Union chief on a tour of the new factory and tells him that none of the robots take sick days, show up drunk, need vacations, or require holiday pay. Yet they produce more cars, better made, at a lower cost. The union chief remarks that the robots don’t buy cars. That dilemma is at the heart of the matter in regards to things like the minimum wage.
@Brookswood
One way to determine fair is when there's a willing supplier and consumer, if neither party willingly enters the transaction it might not be 'fair'.
It is very subjective...
One way to determine fair is when there's a willing supplier and consumer, if neither party willingly enters the transaction it might not be 'fair'.
It is very subjective...
Knight
Well-known Member
Quote
"If it negatively impacts jobs then there were to many jobs that don't allow to live a minimal existence"
I don't understand the logic in that.
Is your solution to reduce jobs?
Knight
Well-known Member
The union chief ignores the idea that conversion to robotics so the cost to manufacture more at less cost to get a better profit is what capitalism is about. Car manufacturing plant employees are minimal relative to the buying public.
It would be nice to think that everyone no matter their earning capacity would buy higher priced products . But isn't higher production cost what drove & still drives manufacturing jobs to countries with lower production costs?
VaughanJB
Scrappy VIP
In the big picture, what is the point of having jobs that don't pay a sufficient amount for people to survive on? How do they survive then?
The US is the richest country in the world. It is the leader of the free world. It sets standards for many to follow - and we're not prioritizing jobs that allow people to live a minimal existence?
The simple fact is, not all jobs are good jobs. The goal of jobs, and having people work, is to contribute to the economy. People not earning enough to survive cannot do that. Worse, their only other option is social programs, ie. various government handouts. Which in turn means that your taxes are being given out as effective corporate welfare.
We know that there are people in India earning very little in various manufacturing jobs. The average salary for workers in manufacturing there is $165 a month. Are you suggesting that these jobs should be brought back to the US? If so, how could that work? That's not a job, it's slavery.
Which brings to mind - do you think there should be a minimum at all?
Knight
Well-known Member
I took the lowest federal min wage @7.25an American worker @40hr work week before taxes earns $290.00. I'm not suggesting the wage in India be the wage paid if those jobs are brought back to America. What I'm suggesting. Wages set by the employer should allow for the employer to earn a profit.
Do I think there should be a minimum wage ? I've never been interested in being an employer. As far back as I can remember even as a teen learning the trade of retail butchering I've never worked at a minimum wage job. So with that as my reference I'd say no to minimum wage. When a job with higher wages was possible to be had I had no problem changing or even moving to better our family circumstances.
Not everyone will move, not everyone has the physical or mental capacity to earn a higher wage. Many will take what they can get.
That's true but it usually costs money to improve skill level. people who are earning very low wages rarely have money leftover for trade schools or colleges and sometimes they don't even have money for transportation to those schools.
Soon after he retired my husband drove a taxi for awhile and it was an eye opener about the local fast food workers.
One married couple had no car, so he was driving them to and from the job -- our town has no bus service and they could not afford a car.
They lived in a motel -- they never would have managed to accumulate enough extra money to pay the first and last month rent for an apartment.
They bought their food at the convenience stores -- much more expensive than the supermarket, but it was in walking distance from their motel and could be microwaved.
Poverty can be a trap with no way out. We need public transportation in every town. Free trade schools. Free medical care. Decent public housing.
Amazon.com
Nickle and Dimed is 13 years old now, but still a great book.
"To find out, Ehrenreich left her home, took the cheapest lodgings she could find, and accepted whatever jobs she was offered. Moving from Florida to Maine to Minnesota, she worked as a waitress, a hotel maid, a cleaning woman, a nursing-home aide, and a Wal-Mart sales clerk. She lived in trailer parks and crumbling residential motels. Very quickly, she discovered that no job is truly "unskilled," that even the lowliest occupations require exhausting mental and muscular effort. She also learned that one job is not enough; you need at least two if you intend to live indoors."
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Harry Le Hermit
Member
There are many different gauges of employment, so stating one as being fake, might be incorrect. The issue might be with areas being oversaturated with fast food restaurants. When a new one comes in, does the dining clientele increase... or is it diluted among the entire group.
If employee wage increases lead to the demise of a restaurant, might be a boon... to all the others. Simple supply and demand.
If employee wage increases lead to the demise of a restaurant, might be a boon... to all the others. Simple supply and demand.