The fast-food industry claims minimum wage law is costing jobs. Its numbers are fake

Nope. Nice try. Wrong. Very very wrong.

Minimal - a roof and enough food. How dare people expect so much! :D

How about, effectively, outlawing slavery, and having a minimum wage? Simple.

See, others will attempt to fix the problem, with or without you. You're arguing for less than minimum wage, for some reason..........
Never questioned min wage. Post are
Nope. Nice try. Wrong. Very very wrong.

Minimal - a roof and enough food. How dare people expect so much! :D

How about, effectively, outlawing slavery, and having a minimum wage? Simple.

See, others will attempt to fix the problem, with or without you. You're arguing for less than minimum wage, for some reason..........
Would you do me a favor & post the numbers of the posts where I've gone against min wage. Posting an opinion that the state of Cal. arbitrarily raising the min wage of a particular sector has caused job & business loss isn't the same.

What exactly is your attempt to fix the problem of people unable to secure a higher paying job?
 

Never questioned min wage. Post are

Would you do me a favor & post the numbers of the posts where I've gone against min wage. Posting an opinion that the state of Cal. arbitrarily raising the min wage of a particular sector has caused job & business loss isn't the same.

What exactly is your attempt to fix the problem of people unable to secure a higher paying job?

Just about everything you've written is questioning minimum wage. Perhaps I missed some posts? So, you're in favor of minimum wage, and in particular, the minimum wage limit for fast food in California? See, a lot of costs have gone up, yet the minimum wage seems to singled out as the sole cause of business loss. Strange that.

You know how you could save these businesses? Go buy their food. Want to save the "iconic" McDonalds in Hollywood? Go down there and buy burgers. Only, factoring staff wages into the business model is like, business 101. If it doesn't add up, it doesn't add up..... Go spend your money!

As for your last question - I don't understand it. Has it even been a topic in this thread (perhaps something else I missed?) I'm retired. In the past I have done things, I wrote books to help people learn a new trade, I spoke at conferences, I taught IT topics for a couple years, and finally, when in a position of hiring and firing, I made sure wages were fair and good people got hired. But really, none of that has anything to do with the topic in this thread. So why are you asking?
 
Sorry, but I don't think anyone has claimed this will end homelessness. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Why are we averse to risk in business? Why does the business have no responsibility? I mean, oh, those poor franchise owners.

This is about paying people enough to house and feed themselves. That's it. Doing so won't solve the world's ills. It'll only help those who find themselves having to work at a the lowest end of the financial spectrum. What it will help alleviate is the burden of the working poor.

Will it help prevent homelessness? You think "no". I say, in certain circumstances, Yes. Unless you think that someone, working 40 hours a week and living in their car, would choose NOT to rent a room or apartment even if they could afford it. Still, you seem to be using the word "homelessness" are meaning ALL homelessness. That's clearly not applicable here - since we're talking people who are working. This is about a fair wage for a fair job done.

Again - if the business can't pay enough for someone to survive out there, then it closes. As it should. If the franchise owner can't make a profit, they close. The business is no good, it makes a loss, it's over.

I'm curious now.... I mean, do you think there should be any limits on pay? Like, do you think McDonald's should be able to pay .50 an hour?
California did.
Franchise owners = small business owners.
The kid who lost his job because his boss can't keep him after having to raise his wages from $15 to $20 lost his ability to pay his share of the rent. He's not homeless if he can move back in with mom and dad, but his chances of finding another job at a ff restaurant are slim.
And then, you've got a franchise owner and every one of his employees on unemployment....times 11,000.


Good plan.
 

California did.

Can you link me to where someone in Californian government said they thought the rate would end homelessness, as in ALL homelessness? I've not seen it, and would be interested to find out who said it, and why they did so.

California did.
Franchise owners = small business owners.
The kid who lost his job because his boss can't keep him after having to raise his wages from $15 to $20 lost his ability to pay his share of the rent. He's not homeless if he can move back in with mom and dad, but his chances of finding another job at a ff restaurant are slim.
And then, you've got a franchise owner and every one of his employees on unemployment....times 11,000.

And that just completes the circle and proves the point. Rents are rising, regardless of minimum wage. Somehow, wages need to keep up. How much profit, or loss, was this particular franchise making? Do we know? What did this employee do in the end?

And no, I doubt the franchise owner will go on to unemployment - not unless he was a terrible business owner. But if you have the particular franchise in mind, let's see what we can find out....... Where was this franchise?
 
Can you link me to where someone in Californian government said they thought the rate would end homelessness, as in ALL homelessness? I've not seen it, and would be interested to find out who said it, and why they did so.
If I did, it would be political. Our state leader said it in a speech. He didn't say it would solve ALL homelessness, and I didn't say he did.
And that just completes the circle and proves the point. Rents are rising, regardless of minimum wage. Somehow, wages need to keep up. How much profit, or loss, was this particular franchise making? Do we know? What did this employee do in the end?

And no, I doubt the franchise owner will go on to unemployment - not unless he was a terrible business owner. But if you have the particular franchise in mind, let's see what we can find out....... Where was this franchise?
Dude, if a ff franchise owner loses their business, their first step is to get unemployment so they can pay their bills and feed the fam while they work out just exactly how they're going to rebuild their life and not lose their home and good standing at the bank.

These people aren't CEOs or even district managers or whatever, they are small business owners. True, they got into a business that practically guarantees success, but, like any a small business, it's success still depends on their management, fiscal, and people skills. Minimum wage in Calif is already one of the highest in the US, so good fiscal skills are extremely crucial.

One McD's, a Taco Bell, and a Long John Sliver's, all within 3 miles of my home, are now closed, and the Wienerschnitzel is closing soon. Not gonna give you coordinates, dude, but these aren't the only closures in my city.

My granddaughter's boyfriend lost his job at McD's. He'll have to move back to his mom's by the end of the month if he can't find work. He shares a rental w/3 other guys who will have to find a new roommate (employed) or lose the rental. My other granddaughter lost her job, but was soon hired at a Pet Smart, much to the relief of her roommates.

You see how this thing can snowball?

Why is Calif burdening small business owners with wage increases rather than imposing a maximum cap on rent? Average rent in Calif for an older 2-bedroom 1-bath home is $2500/mo. For a newer place, you'll pay upwards from $3000. The average fast food worker works 24 to 32 hrs/wk. Only the managers work full time. Even at $20/hr, the fry cook is still unable to afford that rental on their own. They're certainly not going to be able to start a family. Most of them are gonna get their hours cut.
 
Just about everything you've written is questioning minimum wage. Perhaps I missed some posts? So, you're in favor of minimum wage, and in particular, the minimum wage limit for fast food in California?

You know how you could save these businesses?

As for your last question - I don't understand it.
I'm in favor of a min wage. But not in favor of singling out one segment of California jobs. There is no doubt that has cost jobs. If the politicians had raised the min wage for every low paying job that would have been fair. IMO the Cal. politicians were/are testing the waters of wage & job loss in one segment. The $25.00 an hour min wage raise for health care workers isn't impacting the public the way the raise for the fast food industry is.

I don't know how I could save businesses. I'm sure you have a simplistic answer that is just plain silly.

Not unexpected that you would dodge this

"What exactly is your attempt to fix the problem of people unable to secure a higher paying job?"
 
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I'm in favor of a min wage. But not in favor of singling out one segment of California jobs. There is no doubt that has cost jobs. If the politicians had raised the min wage for every low paying job that would have been fair. IMO the Cal. politicians were/are testing the waters of wage & job loss in one segment. The $25.00 an hour min wage raise for health care workers isn't impacting the public the way the raise for the fast food industry is.
I agree. Also, the new ff min wage got him lots of support (from people who don't own a ff franchise).
"What exactly is your attempt to fix the problem of people unable to secure a higher paying job?"
If you don't mind me butting in; I suggest informing high school students that they can actually prepare for a well-paying career by getting into a career college, skills training program, or apprenticeship program. Take your focus off the SATs and advise the students how to get into a lucrative career....for free, in a lot of cases.
 
I'm in favor of a min wage. But not in favor of singling out one segment of California jobs. There is no doubt that has cost jobs. If the politicians had raised the min wage for every low paying job that would have been fair. IMO the Cal. politicians were/are testing the waters of wage & job loss in one segment. The $25.00 an hour min wage raise for health care workers isn't impacting the public the way the raise for the fast food industry is.

I don't know how I could save businesses. I'm sure you have a simplistic answer that is just plain silly.

Not unexpected that you would dodge this

"What exactly is your attempt to fix the problem of people unable to secure a higher paying job?"

Nope, and nope. I directly answered your final question, and see no reason to repeat myself when it's there to be read. You can like it, not agree with it, or not read it, but I can only provide the honest answer already given. And as I said, none of that impacted minimum wages in California. So.........

You don't know how to save a business? Well, the best way is to use it. Go buy some food from McDonald's. It truly is that easy. If everyone here bought a burger tomorrow, we'd vastly improve their day. Is that simplistic? Or just plain 101 economics?

Sadly, not all businesses are viable. Some that were, no longer are. Times change, business pressures change. It's how the world works.

Frankly, I don't eat at fast food joints, and have not done so for many years. I remember the food tasting pretty damn good. But it's just not something I've done.
 
I agree. Also, the new ff min wage got him lots of support (from people who don't own a ff franchise).

If you don't mind me butting in; I suggest informing high school students that they can actually prepare for a well-paying career by getting into a career college, skills training program, or apprenticeship program. Take your focus off the SATs and advise the students how to get into a lucrative career....for free, in a lot of cases.
Don't mind at all you posting in reply to some of my posts.
A well paying career might be something school counselors should keep up to date on. And if good at their job even project how the advancement in robotics & AI will impact career jobs.
 
Don't mind at all you posting in reply to some of my posts.
A well paying career might be something school counselors should keep up to date on. And if good at their job even project how the advancement in robotics & AI will impact career jobs.

There is nothing we know that others cannot learn. I'd also like to shop at Woolworth, but they no longer exist in the UK since they went out of business. It happens. Education doesn't always have to cost a fortune, but it does take effort and work. It's a mindset.
 
There is nothing we know that others cannot learn.
Do you actually believe that?

For biochemistry or molecular biology. A doctorate generally takes four to six years. Courses explore advanced topics in biochemistry, such as biomedical science, synthetic biology and research in biostatistics. Mar 21, 2024

How many Americans have an IQ less than 70?
most accurately diagnosed in the school years. assume it is a normally distributed trait in the general population and therefore 2 % the general population and therefore 2 % of individuals would have an IQ less than 70.

Those individuals could find employment in the fast food industry or a business like Woolworth. Oh wait you are happy to see those fail.

Whatever a person is capable of doing to earn a wage has value. Menial labor is needed as much as a neuro surgeon. You promoting businesses closing their doors only helps to increase homelessness.
 
Do you actually believe that?

For biochemistry or molecular biology. A doctorate generally takes four to six years. Courses explore advanced topics in biochemistry, such as biomedical science, synthetic biology and research in biostatistics. Mar 21, 2024

How many Americans have an IQ less than 70?
most accurately diagnosed in the school years. assume it is a normally distributed trait in the general population and therefore 2 % the general population and therefore 2 % of individuals would have an IQ less than 70.

Those individuals could find employment in the fast food industry or a business like Woolworth. Oh wait you are happy to see those fail.

Whatever a person is capable of doing to earn a wage has value. Menial labor is needed as much as a neuro surgeon. You promoting businesses closing their doors only helps to increase homelessness.

Yes, I do believe it. I believe in the ingenuity of the human species, dedication, hard work, and self-improvement. Learning never ends. It takes sacrifice, commitment, and intent. With the correct mindset and opportunity, people can learn.

Of course, some things take a short period to learn, others take a lot more effort in terms of work and time. That doesn't mean they can't be learned, just that it's a larger cycle. I've tried cracking quantum mechanics for some time, just a basic knowledge, and frankly, I find the material very difficult to take in, it's been a while, and I know very little. But that's okay, learning isn't equal for all topics.

Why you're talking about people with a IQ of 70 I don't know. All people can learn.

I'm also not "happy to see [businesses] fail." That's just silly. I'm happy to see businesses that can not pay a minimum wage fail, for sure. Other than that, meet the minimum required of you, and you can sell as many burgers as you want - and good luck to you.

And your promoting people not getting a minimum wage as prescribed by the State is modern day slavery. The people won't be able to feed themselves, or pay for housing. Somehow, you think that improves the homeless situation. You say this when it's simple to find plenty of information on the working poor. You say this knowing that your tax dollars are gong on benefits for these people, effectively paying for the employer to exploit them. You say this knowing the number of homeless is already high. I'd rather a business paid the minimum as written in law - or end.

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All of that said - this has all become a little tit-for-tat, and I'm finding some of your comments come across as point scoring. I think you and I both know our point of view here, and that we have very different opinions around it. That's fine,in a healthy world, it happens. However, it's not really worth circling the drain on the topic. It's probably long passed time for you and I to stop going back and forth without any new actual content.

It is the job of the business owner to budget for their business. Typically, that means up to 30% of gross profit should go to wages. However, it would depend on whether you consider them a service industry or not. If you do, that goes up to 50% (McDonalds is partially a service industry, and partially a product company). If you're not making enough money to cover that, you go out of business. It's very simple.

Still, I don't think there's anything you and I will learn about each of our points of view, beyond what's already been written three or four times already (although I can't speak for you, of course). It's time for you and I to accept our stances, and stop having a dialog between us in the thread. IMO.
 
Why you're talking about people with a IQ of 70 I don't know. All people can learn.
Reducing your long rant down to that basic thought.

I'm talking about the ability to earn the kind of wage that you may have enjoyed that in reality 70 IQ won't ever be able to achieve. I think it's understood a person with a 70 IQ can easily learn the jobs offered at fast food places.
I agree this back & forth is us expressing our opinions have strayed from the thread of fake job numbers.

All we really know is right now FF businesses are closing, there is job loss. I think it will take at least 6 months of data collecting to know what the actual numbers are.
 
All we really know is right now FF businesses are closing, there is job loss. I think it will take at least 6 months of data collecting to know what the actual numbers are.

We shall await the numbers, and analyze them, rather than be too simplistic about their interpretation. Only time will tell, but resolution between you and I almost certainly will not come from whichever way they read.

Business isn't just wages - it's debt, rental costs, local taxes, material costs, transportation costs, energy costs, interest rates, leasing costs and so on. All must be accounted for when trying to point the finger at any one of them. It won't be easy to show which franchises close because of minimum wage over all the other aspects. But we'll see when the time comes.

EDIT: I did some looking into McDonald's franchises, and got some numbers. Length of the franchise agreement seems to be 20 years, with no right to renew once that time limit is reached. On the end, the total cost of a franchise is $522,500. The upper range is $2,642,000. There are 1000's of dollars of annual costs that are set at the national level by McD. 5% of gross profits go back to McD annually as a "Service charge". Another 4% of gross profit every year has to be paid back to McD for marketing.

I could go on, but the pressures on a McD are many, and given the profit made by the company (as shown earlier) I'd say there's plenty of wiggle room if they wanted to help out franchise owners.
 
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Business isn't just wages - it's debt, rental costs, local taxes, material costs, transportation costs, energy costs, interest rates, leasing costs and so on. All must be accounted for when trying to point the finger at any one of them. It won't be easy to show which franchises close because of minimum wage over all the other aspects. But we'll see when the time comes.
True business isn't just about wages.
The OP's post was about the impact wages are having FF places.
I could agree with your opinion that McD has wiggle room if that was the only FF business experiencing the effect of the wage increase. Multiple FF places closing IMO has to mean the raise is causing employee job.

I think I'll go with my suspicion the Cal. politicians are testing the waters to determine the impact of raising the wage in one segment. Like the total loss of jobs & business closing the actual numbers are yet to be determined.

I think this has reached the limit so this will be my last post.

Off now to take my wife to her spa appointment than lunch out & gambling.
 
I could go on, but the pressures on a McD are many, and given the profit made by the company (as shown earlier) I'd say there's plenty of wiggle room if they wanted to help out franchise owners.
That's an interesting topic that I know a little bit about...

Franchise owners get deals on all the food, equipment, and supplies because the corporation either owns, partly owns, or is contracted with beef ranches, veggie farms, manufacturers of paper products, buns, soda, stoves, softy ice-cream machines, all of it. And, obviously, they don't have to pay for advertising. They also get a deal on uniforms and work shoes (at some ff places, employees can buy the shoes, but it's optional and they get the same discount as the f/owner). The corporation also has contracts with all the different repair companies, including building repairs, but all the monthly insurance premiums comes out of the franchise owner's pockets, including worker's compensation. All licensing fees, bank fees, and taxes do as well, of course.

Anyway, that's about the extent of the corporation helping out the franchise owners.

To the topic you brought up, aside from f/owners, the corporation's priority is investors. If McD's has a particularly profitable year, they want their investor's returns to reflect that. They want to maintain a good stock rating and entice more investors. That's where the corporation makes huge profits.
 
That's an interesting topic that I know a little bit about...

Franchise owners get deals on all the food, equipment, and supplies because the corporation either owns, partly owns, or is contracted with beef ranches, veggie farms, manufacturers of paper products, buns, soda, stoves, softy ice-cream machines, all of it. And, obviously, they don't have to pay for advertising. They also get a deal on uniforms and work shoes (at some ff places, employees can buy the shoes, but it's optional and they get the same discount as the f/owner). The corporation also has contracts with all the different repair companies, including building repairs, but all the monthly insurance premiums comes out of the franchise owner's pockets, including worker's compensation. All licensing fees, bank fees, and taxes do as well, of course.

Anyway, that's about the extent of the corporation helping out the franchise owners.

To the topic you brought up, aside from f/owners, the corporation's priority is investors. If McD's has a particularly profitable year, they want their investor's returns to reflect that. They want to maintain a good stock rating and entice more investors. That's where the corporation makes huge profits.

It's just how food franchises work. It's not simply about the money coming through the tills, it's about all the contracted outgoings. Of course, the corporation will want to maximize profits for themselves. In other words, they can either help out a little or not. It's a choice.

A McD franchise owner pays $1058 a year for its point of sale software. There's a $3500 annual fee for "Global Mobile App/ Digital Capabilities". A self Service kiosk costs $500 a year. $800 annually is for "Backoffice integration". Network Management costs $1000 a year. It just goes on and on and on. None of this has anything to do with the minimum wage, and no-one seems to bother to question the model and the charges, because I suppose they don't count somehow? Or perhaps because you've signed up to 20 years of paying these fees?

But my main point is - there are MANY moving parts. To single out Minimum Wage and point the finger and blame a closing simply on that is, frankly, lazy and dishonest, imo. At least, while you don't know what the other costs are doing (such as rental costs charged, Satellite Rent, and so on). The picture being drawn is that these businesses are on an edge and about to to over, just because of the Minimum Wage. I say - show me the numbers. I mean, in California commercial rents have increased - aren't they part of the story?

We should be careful about jumping to simple, quick fire, "solutions" or "explanations" for complex problems. McD's doesn't exist in a vacuum. A quote from their earnings announcement this quarter was: "McDonald's, like its peers, has raised prices by mid- to high-single-digit percentages over the past year in response to a rise in costs of eggs and other raw items even as lower-income budgets remain stretched." It should be obvious that the pressures on their business are multi-faceted. (And yes, I hate you all for making me go and read all this stuff. :D I also won't go into another aspect they claim affects them, the so called "the Middle East conflict weighed on the burger chain's international sales").

But of course, "Minimum Wage increases causes closures" works far better as clickbait. IMO
 
But my main point is - there are MANY moving parts. To single out Minimum Wage and point the finger and blame a closing simply on that is, frankly, lazy and dishonest, imo.
Except that imposing a ridiculous min wage is government interference that kills businesses. That's the complaint. And the reason it's a ridiculous wage is because ff jobs are primarily given to older teens and very young adults....it's a starter job, usually a first job. No one who takes those jobs expects to live independently, not only because it's entry into the workforce, but because they are mostly part-time jobs. Every kid knows that.

After years of training and work experience, my son was making $27/hr as a construction engineer foreman. His employer was forced to raise tens of thousands of employees wages because, obviously.

I don't get why you refuse to see the big picture. I don't really care, it's just a bit frustrating is all. But I'll leave it alone now.

Vaughn, hope you have a good day. (y)
 
The big boys will continue to replace people with machines. The little guys and gals who can’t afford machines will close up shop. What else is new?
 
The $20/hr ff wage only applies to chains w more than 60 outlets. And somebody will be selling "machines" to the mom and pop's.
Why would the better workers work for mom and pop when they can get more money at a big chain?

Where do mom and pop get the money to install and maintain the needed equipment?

IMO, these questions need to be looked into lest we tilt the playing field too far in favor of the big boys.
 
Why would the better workers work for mom and pop when they can get more money at a big chain?

Where do mom and pop get the money to install and maintain the needed equipment?

IMO, these questions need to be looked into lest we tilt the playing field too far in favor of the big boys.
Mom and pop might have to pay more, or treat them better, or make more consistent schedules or simply be a better place to work. These are kids so they only need to buy bubble gum; they have time to chase the big $$$ later.

Where does mom and pop get the money for any capitol improvement? From the mattress of course.
 


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