The wedding cake issue again

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Societies move forward. Neanderthals die off or evolve. We each get to decide where we want to be on that continuum. People who teach their that they are better than others, or that God loves them more than others (Good grief!) will doom them to a lifetime of anger and pain.
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StarSong, amen!
 

Butterfly said:
No, Lara, it isn't. I suggest you read the online decision of the Supreme Court. The Court did NOT touch the issue of whether the baker had a right to refuse or not. It based its VERY narrow ruling on things that took place at the Civil Rights Commission below ("technicalities" if you will) and specifically stated it was NOT ruling on the issue of the baker's refusal.

The Court did NOT rule on whether or not the Baker was in violation of Colorado's anti-discrimination law or whether or not law that law is unconstitutional. I note that Colorado expanded its anti-discrimination laws in 2007 and 2008 to include forbidding discrimination with regard to sexual orientation.

I also suggest you do further research on the issue of your assertion that the First Amendment allegedly protects the right of "any and all religions to practice their beliefs at any time." Your assertion is a bit broad, to say the least.
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Thank you for that explanation -- when I read the various press reports, it seemed to me (a non-lawyer) that the issue was about the tactics used by the Civil Rights Commission. Hopefully, that will help determine how governmental agencies proceed with future complaints, not just coming down hard on one side or the other based on "because we can" and personal opinions. Am I close? :rolleyes:
 

Traveler said:
Accepting others ? Hmm. You mean like being referred to as Neanderthals ?
(see starsong's post)
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I presume this is the post you mean:
StarSong said:
The bus driver had the trump card with Rosa Parks. Until he didn't anymore.

Societies move forward. Neanderthals die off or evolve. We each get to decide where we want to be on that continuum. People who teach their children that they are better than others, or that God loves them more than others (Good grief!) will doom them to a lifetime of anger and pain.
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In some ways we are all Neanderthals because we belong to our pasts, Traveler. I'd love to have a TV with a dial channel changer. Remotes get me crazy. Don't get me started on the ridiculous learning curve with each new cell phone. Or computer operating system. Windows 10 anyone? I have plenty of Neanderthal moments of my own.

The question on this thread is whether we are open to learning and evolving our attitudes toward other human beings or if we're going to stay stuck in our unenlightened pasts. Surely you recall kids from your high school years who were a couple of steps off from most of the students. You maybe didn't quite know what it was about them that was different, but you sensed something. As you got older you probably realized that they were gay.

Those kids held their secrets, their very worst fears, so close inside that they didn't dare even admit them to themselves. Many committed suicide, became drug addicts or alcoholics because the pain of being "different" was so excruciating. The fear of not being accepted was so great that many pretended to be people that they weren't and so they married, spreading the pain to unwitting spouses.

With so many gays having come forward and sharing their stories we now know what that was like for them. Isn't it time we stop treating them like "others" and accept them as equal members in our family of man?
 
Traveler said:
Perhaps a "fact" to the P.C.ers. An insult, if a person thinks for him/her self.
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Why do you try and divide and conquer everyone into all these different categories?
The P.C. ‘ers, the leftists, the feminists, the anti Americans , the aliens .... etc., etc.,

AND Traveler darling, I AM quite capable of thinking for myself and resent the innuendo you’ve painted here.
Not everything is as black and white as you tend to express.
 
Shalimar said:
Agreed, a society’s ultimate survival hinges on its ability to adapt.
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Exactly!

StarSong said:
I presume this is the post you mean:


In some ways we are all Neanderthals because we belong to our pasts, Traveler. I'd love to have a TV with a dial channel changer. Remotes get me crazy. Don't get me started on the ridiculous learning curve with each new cell phone. Or computer operating system. Windows 10 anyone? I have plenty of Neanderthal moments of my own.

The question on this thread is whether we are open to learning and evolving our attitudes toward other human beings or if we're going to stay stuck in our unenlightened pasts. Surely you recall kids from your high school years who were a couple of steps off from most of the students. You maybe didn't quite know what it was about them that was different, but you sensed something. As you got older you probably realized that they were gay.

Those kids held their secrets, their very worst fears, so close inside that they didn't dare even admit them to themselves. Many committed suicide, became drug addicts or alcoholics because the pain of being "different" was so excruciating. The fear of not being accepted was so great that many pretended to be people that they weren't and so they married, spreading the pain to unwitting spouses.

With so many gays having come forward and sharing their stories we now know what that was like for them. Isn't it time we stop treating them like "others" and accept them as equal members in our family of man?
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Another GREAT post Starsong:clap:
 
Butterfly said:
Sunny said:
Well, reading the last two responses, I realize that I don't know enough about Constitutional law or civil rights legislation to make any meaningful comment about this. And I think this really boils down to a civil rights issue.

Lara, with all due respect for your religious beliefs, and your ability to speak for God, all that is irrelevant to this case. We are not a theocracy, and what's involved here is whether or not there was a violation of civil rights.

rgo, that's an interesting point about whether tax dollars are involved. I really don't know if that factors in as an element of civil rights legislation. Hypothetical example: If an emergency room doctor refuses to treat a patient because the patient is gay, or the wrong color, wrong religion, etc., is that a Constitutional violation, or just a violation of medical ethics? What if he was not working in a public hospital but conducting a private medical practice? Does that change the rules?

One way to consider this case is to reverse the positions of the litigants. What if a Bible-thumping fundamentalist wanted to order a cake from a gay baker who did artistic creations, and the baker refused on religious grounds? Who would be right in that case?[/QUOTE]

First off, I don't think the matter changes at all no matter who's catchin' and who's pitchin'. The law says that if you are running a business offering goods or services to the general public, you must treat everyone the same.

Secondly, I think the "right" and "wrong" of it, if indeed there is one, is in the eye of the beholder. The legality of the situation, however, is in the province of the courts and the law. Courts do not judge who is "right," they judge who is in compliance with the law.
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Thats simple. The bible thumbing fundamentalist would just turn the other cheek. Walk out and get a cake somewhere else and that's what most people would do. You don't want my business I'll take it down the street instead of taking it to the civil rights commission. We are talking about a blooming cake not a life threatening situation.
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Shalimar said:
Often, insults are in the eye of the beholder. For example, I am hopeful that in your frequent posts decrying feminists, or PC ers, you could not possibly be insulting any of the female SF posters, who also think for themselves.
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Baloney ! There is only one way to look at being called a Neanderthal. It is an insult. Period.

Feminists and P.C.ers are insulted by anything that does not kowtow to their agendas.

I didn't start the war on men but I sure as heck have been a victim of it.

I used to be a strong supporter of feminism, but after endless years of being attacked, and insulted, just because I'm a man, I now oppose anything feminist. How's that for irony.

Yes, yes, I now expect to see a post about how kind and loving feminists are. haha What a joke.
 
Traveler said:
Baloney ! There is only one way to look at being called a Neanderthal. It is an insult. Period.

Feminists and P.C.ers are insulted by anything that does not kowtow to their agendas.

I didn't start the war on men but I sure as heck have been a victim of it.

I used to be a strong supporter of feminism, but after endless years of being attacked, and insulted, just because I'm a man, I now oppose anything feminist. How's that for irony.

Yes, yes, I now expect to see a post about how kind and loving feminists are. haha What a joke.
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It is interesting trying to follow a mindset which holds such a rigid view of women that someone is oblivious to their own insulting, verbally abusive behaviour. There are many women here who have horror stories re how they were

abused by men, some for years. Some throughout their whole childhood. Some as adults. However, they do not use those experiences, horrendous though they were, as an excuse to denigrate the majority of men. I am sorry you are a prisoner of your experiences, perhaps counseling would help. Excoriating the women of SF helps no one.
 
Shalimar said:
It is interesting trying to follow a mindset which holds such a rigid view of women that someone is oblivious to their own insulting, verbally abusive behaviour. There are many women here who have horror stories re how they were

abused by men, some for years. Some throughout their whole childhood. Some as adults. However, they do not use those experiences, horrendous though they were, as an excuse to denigrate the majority of men. I am sorry you are a prisoner of your experiences, perhaps counseling would help. Excoriating the women of SF helps no one.
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Take it to the civil rights commission. Stick to the topic.
 
Traveler said:
Baloney ! There is only one way to look at being called a Neanderthal. It is an insult. Period.

Feminists and P.C.ers are insulted by anything that does not kowtow to their agendas.

I didn't start the war on men but I sure as heck have been a victim of it.

I used to be a strong supporter of feminism, but after endless years of being attacked, and insulted, just because I'm a man, I now oppose anything feminist. How's that for irony.

Yes, yes, I now expect to see a post about how kind and loving feminists are. haha What a joke.
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Camper6 said:
Take it to the civil rights commission. Stick to the topic.
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And THIS is ON topic? :shrug:
 
Keesha said:
If you spend your entire life looking to be offended, there will be enough to ‘cry victim’ for a lifetime.
‘Woe is me’
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Actually that's rather funny. Feminists wrap themselves in a cloak of victimhood. You might even say they are obsessed with the notion of victimhood.

One can not bring up feminism, without hearing endless stories of the 'atrocities' committed by men.

Time for a new song. That one is worn out. It is the main reason why there are so many "Women Against Feminism"

http://www.facebook.com/WomenAgainstFeminism
 
Traveler said:
Actually that's rather funny. Feminists wrap themselves in a cloak of victimhood. You might even say they are obsessed with the notion of victimhood.

One can not bring up feminism, without hearing endless stories of the 'atrocities' committed by men.

Time for a new song. That one is worn out. It is the main reason why there are so many "Women Against Feminism"
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Traveler, when on this forum have you EVER read a post about me complaining about men? You are grabbing at straws all in an attempt to start an argument, which you are famous for, ( same argument, different thread title ) so you are the one who needs to start a new song.

AND just for the record, I don’t hate you. I don’t quite understand where the anger and bitterness comes from, but I accept you as you are. Broken like the rest of us. You are just more vocal about your pain than most.
 
Camper6 said:
First Amendment. You are easily offended. Seek counselling. That's what you tell others. No one is asking you to answer to me.

My tone will never change.
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Freedom without responsibilty is a farce. Thank you for the advice, however, after a decade of intensive therapy, what wasn’t cured must be endured. Lulz. pS. I suspect my fuse may be somewhat longer than yours. There is a distinct difference between outlining one’s personal boundaries and being easily offended. Have a good night.
 
Traveler said:
Baloney ! There is only one way to look at being called a Neanderthal. It is an insult. Period.
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OK...NOW.... I'm offended!

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Shalimar said:
Freedom without responsibilty is a farce. Thank you for the advice, however, after a decade of intensive therapy, what wasn’t cured must be endured. Lulz. pS. I suspect my fuse may be somewhat longer than yours. There is a distinct difference between outlining one’s personal boundaries and being easily offended. Have a good night.
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Dont get personal if you can't handl reciprocal comments.
 

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