This is new - Georgia coyote challenge

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dpwspringer

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Georgia
Georgia Coyote Challenge

In order to encourage the taking of coyotes from March to August, the Georgia Department of Natural Resources’ Wildlife Resources Division is introducing the Georgia Coyote Challenge.
Each coyote killed, up to five (5) a month per hunter/trapper, will earn an entry into a monthly drawing for a lifetime license (or equal credit for purchase of hunting/fishing licenses)*.

Currently, scientific research suggests that removal of coyotes during the spring and summer is the most advantageous time to reduce the impact of predation on native wildlife. We want to encourage coyote removal efforts during this critical period.

The coyote (Canis latrans) is a non-native predator that can be found in every county in Georgia and has the unique ability to live in a variety of habitats. Trapping and/or hunting are legal and recommended methods for managing coyotes. Because they did not historically live in Georgia, there is no closed season for their harvest.

. http://www.georgiawildlife.com/hunting/resources/CoyoteChallenge
 

I think that's outrageous but it will appeal to people who just like to kill 'stuff'. It's like the Brits who love to hunt foxes with packs of dogs. They enjoy the bloodshed.

And then there's this guy who keeps down the numbers of rabbits, mice, rats and insects in the forests and grasslands. The natural world as it should be.

58a7836d290000fe16f2737e.jpg

Wildlife services alone (don't know if that includes the 'happy hunters' mentioned above) killed 69,000 coyotes last year. Oh, plus an unknown number of little pups from 492 dens! Imagine, the University of Nebraska giving instruction on how to kill pups in their dens! In looking up 'denning' I came across this article that indicates that in the case of wolves (and probably with coyotes too), pups may be killed by gassing the den, setting fire to it or simple burying the pups alive. Seriously?


http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1473&context=gpwdcwp




'...If a shot to the head sounds bad, Amaroq Weiss, West Coast Wolf Organizer for the Center for Biological Diversity, assured me that the history of wolf denning was worse.“The techniques are all utterly abysmal. They include gassing dens, setting fire in dens, burying the dens with pups alive in them, crawling into dens and pulling pups out to shoot them or club them in the head, and using baits that contain poison or fishing hooks hidden inside the baits to be swallowed.
http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/04/03/wolf-denning-hunting-legal-US
 
Interesting article on Huffington Post that talks about the need and importance of rethinking the predators place in the environment.

It talks about how killing off the predators often results in greater attacks on livestock because packs become disorganized and young animals wind up in leadership roles and may be more inclined to 'kill for fun' as opposed to the older more stable leaders. It also referenced a predator friendly cattle station in Australia where the losses of livestock dropped because the predator populations stabilized.

Also mentioned that in 54 out of 113 regions where 'predator control' programs existed to benefit deer(?) hunters, the population of deer or whatever the game species was, declined (as a result of taking out the predators). My guess is that as the population numbers exploded, they depleted the browse and so when winters came, many starved to death.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry..._us_58a77e73e4b026a89a7a2b08?section=us_green




and an article in the Guardian highlighted studies by researchers who said the following: '"Globally, we are losing our large carnivores," said lead researcher Prof William Ripple, from the department of forest ecosystems and society at Oregon State University in the US. "Many of them are endangered. Their ranges are collapsing. Many of these animals are at risk of extinction, either locally or globally. And, ironically, they are vanishing just as we are learning about their important ecological effects...........But the international team from the US, Australia, Italy and Sweden called for a global initiative to conserve large predators. The scientists suggested it could be modelled on the Large Carnivore Initiative for Europe, an expert group affiliated with the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN). It is committed to helping European predators including the wolf, lynx and brown bear reoccupy many of their former habitats... .'


."Nature is highly interconnected. The work at Yellowstone and other places shows how one species affects another and another through different pathways. It's humbling as a scientist to see the interconnectedness of nature. Disruption of large carnivore populations had led to crop damage, altered stream structures, and changes to the abundance and diversity of birds, mammals, reptiles and invertebrates, said the scientists. By keeping herbivores in check and allowing woody plants to flourish and store more carbon, carnivores also acted as a buffer against climate change.

The researchers accepted that getting human communities to accept the reintroduction of large carnivores was a "major sociopolitical challenge".

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/09/carnivore-cleansing-damaging-ecosystems?CMP=share_btn_tw
 
I agree that the coyote population has to be kept under control. Too many other animals being killed by the coyotes, smaller livestock are vulnerable, rabbits are almost gone here now.

Here's what I don't like about it. It is hard enough to keep people from roaming on your property with high powered rifles during hunting season, even if you post it. This will extend hunting season by 6 months. The neighbors here have done a pretty good job of keeping the coyote population down without incentives. Just being able to fire your rifle at a moving target is enough incentive for most. No more incentives needed.
 
NancyNGA said:
I agree that the coyote population has to be kept under control. Too many other animals being killed by the coyotes, smaller livestock are vulnerable, rabbits are almost gone here now.

Here's what I don't like about it. It is hard enough to keep people from roaming on your property with high powered rifles during hunting season, even if you post it. This will extend hunting season by 6 months. The neighbors here have done a pretty good job of keeping the coyote population down without incentives. Just being able to fire your rifle at a moving target is enough incentive for most. No more incentives needed.
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I am more interested in folks that live in affected areas than those that don't. I live in what is considered the metro Atlanta area and coyotes are a problem, a real problem.

A few years back I did a lot of backpacking, which includes overnight camping in wilderness areas. What I noticed was when the coyotes were abundant there wasn't much evidence of small game animals. That doesn't mean they weren't there, just that I didn't see them, hear them, or notice signs that they were about. Over the years in some of those areas, for whatever reason the coyotes didn't seem to be around any more and I started seeing more small game animals like rabbits.

If you have something to lose it is different than if you don't. Unfortunately many people don't realize that and that's a shame when they try to pass judgement without due consideration of those that do.

Another species that cause problems are wild hogs. I saw and article this morning about Texas trying something new with them:

Texas Ag Commissioner Approves Pesticide Targeting Wild Pigs- NORTH TEXAS (CBS11) – Announcing the “feral hog apocalypse” is within reach, Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller has approved of the first pesticide targeting wild pigs.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/02/20/...esticide-targeting-wild-pigs/?ftag=MSF0951a18
 
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So what do you say to the experts who say that killing the predators is a bad thing?

I once read an interesting story about the rule of Mao Tse Tung and during one year he decided that the sparrows were eating all the grain and that's why there was poverty and hunger in their country. So he issued an edict and forced everyone to work at the eradication of the sparrows. People gathered in the streets banging pots and pans, driving the sparrows away and preventing them from resting, but they left poisoned grain out in specific areas and in those areas, no one banged pots to move the birds away. So the birds rested there in the quiet and ate their fill and literally died by the truckload.

The next year, there was an absolute plague of grasshoppers that ate everything in sight and then the people truly starved, 25-40 million dead.....because there were no sparrows to control the insects which over ran the country. It was called 'The Four Pests Campaign'.

Here's an interesting video that shows exactly what happens when wolves became extinct in Yellowstone National Park (thanks to misguided experts and hunters) 70 years ago and what happened when they were reintroduced in 1995 because the deer had overbred and were destroying the park.

It's actually a beautiful 4 minute video that opens with a chorus of the most beautiful song of wolves![video]https://boredomtherapy.com/wolves-change-rivers/[/video]
 
Debby said:
So what do you say to the experts who say that killing the predators is a bad thing?
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It depends on what I think I know of the situation and what they are saying because like with most things, they don't all say the same thing. Nature is a delicate balance and that needs to taking into account. What is prudent in one situation, or sample in time, may be disastrous in another. But here's one of the first thing I listen for-- what the folks that are living with the situation have to say. Many things along these lines are fluid; for example they have campfire bans during times of drought and restrictions for food containers when camping in specific areas where there are problem bears in the national forest in my area of the country.

So there is not just one automatic response when some expert blindly states that killing predators is bad and you have to realize you are not going to find a single solution to these kinds of issues that are going to please everyone. Often no matter what you do or don't do, the end results will be that somebody can legitimately point out a problem and say "I told you so". And you know why... there is no perfect solution to most real world problems.
 
Sorry, not good enough because those people you are talking about are frequently ignorant of the big picture, are definitely influenced by the same current teaching that killing every predator is effective or influenced by only their wants as opposed to what is actually good for the environment and particularly for the animals involved. We humans have a recorded history of meddling in and ruining environments wherever we go. And this has nothing to do with banning campfires during times of drought or not storing food properly.

And the modern day experts calling for a reappraisal of current thinking aren't blindly stating anything, they're reporting what they see.

This article, published in Science magazine discusses the flaws in current thinking on the subject not to mention the lack of good studies and includes results of a project that used Great Pyrenees dogs and flapping red flags to deter both wolves and coyotes in a cattle raising area. It was successful on the ranch where it was tried, predation was reduced significantly enough that other ranchers in the region wanted to turn to the same methods of protecting their animals. Considering the benefits of having predators and the problems that result from taking them out of the environment, it's time to stop being lazy (just shoot them) and start looking at other methods.


'....Performed by Tom Gehring, a biologist at Central Michigan University in Mount Pleasant, they showed that wolves and coyotes both steered clear of cattle farms patrolled by Great Pyrenees dogs, and that the flags deterred wolves, but not coyotes..........

..To prepare for the studies, done on Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, Gehring combed through data on the ranges of local wolf packs to identify vulnerable farms, then visited each operation to secure its commitment. He paired farms based on attributes like size and location and randomly assigned one to the treatment group and one to the control group. “It was an ordeal,” Gehring acknowledges.

“It took months.” In the end, he claims, the rigorous design was well worth the trouble. Before his experiments, he says, many ranchers and biologists were skeptical that guard dogs could protect stock against wolves. By the end, though, the ranchers who had been assigned to the control group were clamoring for dogs of their own. “You don’t hear anybody question that guard dogs work in Michigan anymore,” Gehring says. ....'




http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/09/no-proof-shooting-predators-saves-livestock
 
dpwspringer said:
It depends on what I think I know of the situation and what they are saying because like with most things, they don't all say the same thing. Nature is a delicate balance and that needs to taking into account. What is prudent in one situation, or sample in time, may be disastrous in another. But here's one of the first thing I listen for-- what the folks that are living with the situation have to say. Many things along these lines are fluid; for example they have campfire bans during times of drought and restrictions for food containers when camping in specific areas where there are problem bears in the national forest in my area of the country.

So there is not just one automatic response when some expert blindly states that killing predators is bad and you have to realize you are not going to find a single solution to these kinds of issues that are going to please everyone. Often no matter what you do or don't do, the end results will be that somebody can legitimately point out a problem and say "I told you so". And you know why... there is no perfect solution to most real world problems.
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You make great points there, dpwspringer.
 
Debby said:
Sorry, not good enough because those people you are talking about are frequently ignorant of the big picture, are definitely influenced by the same current teaching that killing every predator is effective or influenced by only their wants as opposed to what is actually good for the environment and particularly for the animals involved. We humans have a recorded history of meddling in and ruining environments wherever we go. And this has nothing to do with banning campfires during times of drought or not storing food properly.

And the modern day experts calling for a reappraisal of current thinking aren't blindly stating anything, they're reporting what they see.

This article, published in Science magazine discusses the flaws in current thinking on the subject not to mention the lack of good studies and includes results of a project that used Great Pyrenees dogs and flapping red flags to deter both wolves and coyotes in a cattle raising area. It was successful on the ranch where it was tried, predation was reduced significantly enough that other ranchers in the region wanted to turn to the same methods of protecting their animals. Considering the benefits of having predators and the problems that result from taking them out of the environment, it's time to stop being lazy (just shoot them) and start looking at other methods.


'....Performed by Tom Gehring, a biologist at Central Michigan University in Mount Pleasant, they showed that wolves and coyotes both steered clear of cattle farms patrolled by Great Pyrenees dogs, and that the flags deterred wolves, but not coyotes..........

..To prepare for the studies, done on Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, Gehring combed through data on the ranges of local wolf packs to identify vulnerable farms, then visited each operation to secure its commitment. He paired farms based on attributes like size and location and randomly assigned one to the treatment group and one to the control group. “It was an ordeal,” Gehring acknowledges.

“It took months.” In the end, he claims, the rigorous design was well worth the trouble. Before his experiments, he says, many ranchers and biologists were skeptical that guard dogs could protect stock against wolves. By the end, though, the ranchers who had been assigned to the control group were clamoring for dogs of their own. “You don’t hear anybody question that guard dogs work in Michigan anymore,” Gehring says. ....'




http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/09/no-proof-shooting-predators-saves-livestock
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You are making some assumptions about who is ignorant and who wants to just shoot every predator that you might be wrong about. You are taking an attitude that is bit insulting. What works in one environment may not be appropriate in another and the folks proposing the solutions to their local problems are often experts too... usually experts with years of experience dealing with that specific problem in that environment. They are not someone that just fell off the turnip truck.
 
Debby said:
Sorry, not good enough
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Many of these "studies" fail to take one glaring truth into consideration.....that being, the Unchecked growth of the human populations, and their encroachment into areas previously occupied primarily by animal populations. We have witnessed such a "transition" over the past 15 years...when we moved into a rural development of about 800 acres of previously unoccupied forest land. There are about 25 families now in this forest. At first, there was good population of deer, coyotes, foxes, raccoons, and gobs of squirrels. Those began to be "replaced" by dogs, cats and chickens. The "chicken" people quickly thinned out the coyote and fox populations. I don't miss the coyotes, as they were a nuisance, and I even shot one who was hanging around and being aggressive...and scaring the wife a couple of times as he approached her baring his teeth. I do miss the foxes, as a couple of them used to follow me around the yard, acting curious about what I was doing....they were kind of cute. We still have gobs of deers, and there is a doe with two yearling fawns that bed down at the edge of the yard. I feed them corn this time of year, to keep them fit and fed through the Winter, and they come running when I bring out their daily snack. I have had them walk right up to me and stop just a few feet away....needles to say, I have given up deer hunting. I have had an ongoing battle with the raccoons invading my garden, but I started trapping them with a Hav-a-Heart trap, and have taken a bunch of them back into the deep woods and released them far away from the house/garden. The squirrels do their thing, and with huge crops of acorns and walnuts every year, they help keep the yard cleaned up.

Bottom line....as our human population continues to Explode, there will be more conflicts with nature, and it will continue to be an issue.
 
An interesting study in my neck of the woods.

The interaction between wolves and moose on Isle Royale.

What is happening there now is that the deer are being invaded by ticks and getting what is called a wasting disease.

The wolves walked over from Canada to Isle Royale one particular winter when Lake Superior froze.

What is happening to the wolves now is inbreeding so the caretaker of the wildlife at Isle Royale which is wilderness country. No electricity, cars, or whatever is to introduce new wolves to try to balance the interaction between wolves and moose.

If the moose population grows too big they will starve in the winter. The wolf population is declining due to inbreeding.

It will be interesting to see what the solution will be. This is a study where the human population (the ultimate predator) is a non-issue. The state of Michigan wants to keep Isle Royale a wilderness experience. The only way to get there is by boat for camping only.
 
dpwspringer said:
You are making some assumptions about who is ignorant and who wants to just shoot every predator that you might be wrong about. You are taking an attitude that is bit insulting. What works in one environment may not be appropriate in another and the folks proposing the solutions to their local problems are often experts too... usually experts with years of experience dealing with that specific problem in that environment. They are not someone that just fell off the turnip truck.
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Oh well, you and I don't agree. I happen to prefer listening to people who study out stuff instead of going with anecdotes and hearsay from people who have 'vested interests'. Every year in Pennsylvania, there are pigeon shoots that see thousands of birds stuffed into boxes on the ground inside a circle of hunters and the moment the boxes are automatically opened, they fly up in a panic and the hunters blast them out of the sky. And the birds that don't die instantly are gathered up afterwards by kids who stuff them, broken and maimed and dying into garbage barrels and buckets. Hunters like to kill things.

In the UK where fox hunting is banned, jerks in red jackets and looking all fancy and traditional on their horses and surrounded by huge packs of hounds, chase a fox across the countryside until the tragic animal runs out of energy and cowering in a ditch is surrounded by fifty dogs and while the riders sit around on their horses watching, the dogs tear it to shreds. Hunters like to kill things.

Chris Pratt, actor and hunter has stated for the public record now, 'he just likes to kill things'.

Jody Foster said in an interview, that while some people would want to help an injured bird if they saw it on the sidewalk ahead of them, she has to fight the urge to just kick it. Some people just like to kill things.

And each of those links I posted were based on what experts on the subject were saying and none of them just fell off the turnip truck.
 
We have coyotes in my suburban neighborhood. We also have lots of rabbits, squirrels, and quail. Some people have lost cats and small dogs to coyotes. I see that not as a coyote problem, but as a careless pet owner problem.
That said, I have no problem with responsible hunting.
 
Debby said:
Oh well, you and I don't agree. I happen to prefer listening to people who study out stuff instead of going with anecdotes and hearsay from people who have 'vested interests'. Every year in Pennsylvania, there are pigeon shoots that see thousands of birds stuffed into boxes on the ground inside a circle of hunters and the moment the boxes are automatically opened, they fly up in a panic and the hunters blast them out of the sky. And the birds that don't die instantly are gathered up afterwards by kids who stuff them, broken and maimed and dying into garbage barrels and buckets. Hunters like to kill things.

In the UK where fox hunting is banned, jerks in red jackets and looking all fancy and traditional on their horses and surrounded by huge packs of hounds, chase a fox across the countryside until the tragic animal runs out of energy and cowering in a ditch is surrounded by fifty dogs and while the riders sit around on their horses watching, the dogs tear it to shreds. Hunters like to kill things.

Chris Pratt, actor and hunter has stated for the public record now, 'he just likes to kill things'.

Jody Foster said in an interview, that while some people would want to help an injured bird if they saw it on the sidewalk ahead of them, she has to fight the urge to just kick it. Some people just like to kill things.

And each of those links I posted were based on what experts on the subject were saying and none of them just fell off the turnip truck.
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Did I miss something, because I did not notice where any of the experts you cited mentioned anything specifically about the the coyote problem in Georgia or the hog problem in Texas? Both of those states have educated, professional, and dedicated folks involved in this who care greatly about their natural resources. They have taken unusual and controversial measures in what appears to me as a sign of desperation for a problem they haven't been able to get a handle on. I hope they got it right but both measures obviously have some serious risks. I'm confident they have used due diligence in all this, but that's not to say things can't go sideways or there isn't a better way. Both coyotes and wild hogs are cunning animals, can be dangerous, can reproduce in great numbers, and can devastate an area if left alone... I think everyone agrees with that.
 
dpwspringer said:
Did I miss something, because I did not notice where any of the experts you cited mentioned anything specifically about the the coyote problem in Georgia or the hog problem in Texas? Both of those states have educated, professional, and dedicated folks involved in this who care greatly about their natural resources. They have taken unusual and controversial measures in what appears to me as a sign of desperation for a problem they haven't been able to get a handle on. I hope they got it right but both measures obviously have some serious risks. I'm confident they have used due diligence in all this, but that's not to say things can't go sideways or there isn't a better way. Both coyotes and wild hogs are cunning animals, can be dangerous, can reproduce in great numbers, and can devastate an area if left alone... I think everyone agrees with that.
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I don't think they will ever get rid of coyotes. They are incredibly adaptive and cunning. One might call them 'survivors'. Apparently they can mate with wolves.
 
Camper6 said:
I don't think they will ever get rid of coyotes. They are incredibly adaptive and cunning. One might call them 'survivors'. Apparently they can mate with wolves.
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Yup, coyotes are one of natures most adaptive species. If the "end" ever comes, coyotes and cockroaches will probably be among the very last species left. There seems to be an increasing number of "Coywolf" hybrids showing up on the Eastern coast...Canada, and stretching as far South as Virginia.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ds-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/
 
Wilberforce said:
I think they should let nature take it's course in most things.. nuff said
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Simply too little and too late.

There's no way with humans around that you can let nature take its course when it comes to wildlife encroaching on humans or humans encroaching on wildlife.

Nature takes its course where humans are non existent and if you check up on it, it's not pretty.

Snakes will take over an entire uninhabited island. If there are no snakes. Spiders take over the entire island. I watched a documentary on the BBC about wild life.
 
Don M. said:
On the subject of coyotes....here is something I just spotted on Yahoo.....

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wily-coyote-follows-surgeon-south-162257584.html

These are some crafty animals.
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What a lot of folks miss with these "smaller" predatory animals is how dangerous they appear depends on your size and whether you are the one staring at their teeth... what looks freighting to a 3 foot tall child may not look so intimidated to a 6 foot tall, heathy young man and if you are standing safely to the side while someone else is eye ball to eye ball with them, it might not look the same.
 


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