To All: what do you think of affirmative action?

I am against it, as it really is reverse discrimination. Why assume that all kids aiming for college, or all white adults applying for a position, come from a wealthy, privileged background? As well-intentioned as it may be, every time a person gets into a top school or gets a job offer, purely based on the need to fill a racial quota, some other person gets bumped.

However, I would slightly modify my position to say that if two students or job applicants really have exactly identical qualifications, and one is white/Asian and one is black/brown, then race should occasionally be taken into account. It should figure into the decision as much as other factors, such as personality, interests, determination, need, heritage, maybe musical talent or sports ability.

But otherwise, it should be based on merit, period. It should be colorblind.
 

Back in the day San Francisco‘s Lowell High was aimed.at providing a superior college prep education to the best students in the city, however it was also guided by race based affirmative action, and was heavily aimed at the Black community, while ignoring many better qualified students. When raced based admissions were eliminated and admission was based solely on grades and test scores Lowell’s student body became 52% Asian, 18% White, 10% Hispanic, 7% Filipino, and 2% Black. Fair? I think so. Students intellectually best qualified for college admission and success received the benefit of a superior Lowell education, without regard to race. BTW regarding IQ test scores it is a well known fact that second only to Ashkenazi Jews, East Asians are higher scorers than European and American Whites, which explains Asian dominance of the Lowell student body.

https://www.greatschools.org/california/san-francisco/6397-Lowell-High-School/
 
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Once Congress made it clear that civil rights laws applied to everyone and that discrimination was punishable under the law, I think that, in the beginning, Affirmative Action was created mainly to sort of enforce those laws, or more accurately, to make sure nobody fell through the cracks, especially not the very poor, school drop-outs, ex-felons, single moms, etc.

But then AA was taken over by organizations with obvious biases. Mostly racial bias. And by that time AA was getting loads of funding on all levels; state, county, private and corporate; so I think greed was a big part of this takeover, too. And that's when AA's goals got all messed up.

Same thing happened with the Black Lives Matters movement that paid for the organizer's new mansion. Her and her org-partner bought multiple mansions, actually.

In hindsight, it would have been enough to make discrimination of all types definitely punishable under the law, and then let Affirmative Action do it's thing for like a year or two....limit its funding to a reasonable time-frame.
 

Sunny said:
However, I would slightly modify my position to say that if two students or job applicants really have exactly identical qualifications, and one is white/Asian and one is black/brown, then race should occasionally be taken into account. It should figure into the decision as much as other factors, such as personality, interests, determination, need, heritage, maybe musical talent or sports ability.
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Particularly if the job includes lots of contact with customers and/or teams within the company. If there's diversity in the customer base and/or among co-workers and team members, you want someone who's relatable. Or at least someone who appears relatable.
 
Pepper said:
People are confused about it. Some think that means unqualified people get in over qualified. That is simply not true. Once qualification is satisfied, then race becomes a factor. I am in favor of affirmative action. To paraphrase the tortured Lyndon B. Johnson "Can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have boots."
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It is absolutely true. Working for fortune 500 companies many times we had 'guidelines' for hiring based o a points system.
Points are given for hiring a minority, hiring a woman, hiring a minority woman over 50. Those points get tallied across companies and reported to government entities to validate that we comply.
So, yes, it always happens and yes, less qualified people are put into positions based on government guidelines.
I had to comply or was 'talked to' by HR.
 
OneEyedDiva said:
It's sad that my people had to have Affirmative Action legislated in order to get a fair shot at a college education in the first place. Those who are against it don't realize, or don't care, that blocking young African Americans from getting higher education was part of a system that was already in place for over a hundred years. My hope is that now that it's not an anomaly for Blacks to attend universities and having had many, many successful graduates from such universities, that there will not be anymore discrimination against people of color, especially since the law to protect against it has been stuck down.
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Perhaps the most tragic side effect of affirmative action is that very significant achievements of minority students can become compromised. It is often not possible to tell whether a given student genuinely deserved admission to Stanford, or whether he is there by virtue of fitting into some sort of diversity matrix. Given that, I would have those concerns if a doctor is doing a procedure on me. Unfair, maybe, but when you intentionally give someone something based on just the color of their skin, you introduce skepticism in their credentials.
 
Pepper said:
People are confused about it. Some think that means unqualified people get in over qualified. That is simply not true. Once qualification is satisfied, then race becomes a factor. I am in favor of affirmative action. To paraphrase the tortured Lyndon B. Johnson "Can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you don't have boots."
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LBJ put in the most destructive program in the demise of minority family structure.
 
A department of a corporation I worked for had a series of task oriented sub-units, all run by men. A group of female employees got together, sued, and won. It was the decision of the court that a series of reparations would be bestowed on the victorious women, one being educational. A group of women got together, arranged an educational wine tour of France, and got the company to pay for it.
 
ohioboy said:
You are a veteran. You receive bonus points on the police exam. Is that fair to the non veterans?
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i think that is a bit different ... serving your country and after that a few points was earned..... a perk of sorts.
 
Sippican said:
Perhaps the most tragic side effect of affirmative action is that very significant achievements of minority students can become compromised. It is often not possible to tell whether a given student genuinely deserved admission to Stanford, or whether he is there by virtue of fitting into some sort of diversity matrix. Given that, I would have those concerns if a doctor is doing a procedure on me. Unfair, maybe, but when you intentionally give someone something based on just the color of their skin, you introduce skepticism in their credentials.
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Rich kids get admittance w their families help and nobody looks down on them (legacy white is 5x as likely to be admitted to Harvard as a non-legacy white), so there is a double standard imposed by white people and Clarence Thomas to denigrate all AA admittances and their consequent achievements. One might call that systemic racism.

My daughter was well qualified and excelled as an undergrad and grad student, but I'm pretty sure part of the reason she was admitted was based on being able to pay in full. Nobody questions her about whether she was genuinely qualified. She still had to do the work at high level and excel - no body did the work for her, just like all the AA admittances did and should do.
 
ElCastor said:
A department of a corporation I worked for had a series of task oriented sub-units, all run by men. A group of female employees got together, sued, and won. It was the decision of the court that a series of reparations would be bestowed on the victorious women, one being educational. A group of women got together, arranged an educational wine tour of France, and got the company to pay for it.
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Hooray for them! They were harmed and got compensated. Hopefully as a result the company changed their ways.
 
Sippican said:
I agree, Ohio is not comparing Apples to Apples.
Willing to commit your life to the country is much different than having a certain skin color.
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If I score higher than you on the test, why should you be able to bump me out because you were in the service? Where would you put the point limitation at, 10 - 20, where?
 
jimintoronto said:
One of the controversies here in Canada has to do with "how much of an Aboriginal are you '? A few people who landed jobs with the Federal Government were later found to have lied about their Aboriginal heritage, and they were dismissed , based on their having lied about their past. The Chief of the National Assembly of Aboriginal People has recently been removed from her position by a vote of 71 percent of the Chief's on that Council. Why ? She was found to have been guilty of using her position to her advantage, and using unprofessional methods in her dealings with her staff. She is fighting her dismissal in the courts, using tax payer's money, to pay for her lawyer's costs. JimB.
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Interesting point. My research found that the Aboriginal population of Canada is 5%. Yet, according to the amount of news coverage on our local Free Press newspaper and the Canadian CBC, you would think that they are the majority in Canada.

One day when Canada "goes broke" the government will finally learn to stop this nonstop handing out free money. I think that they feel guilty what supposedly their forefathers did. Apparently handing out free money is somehow atoning for their "sins." Strange way of thinking!
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Packerjohn said:
Interesting point. My research found that the Aboriginal population of Canada is 5%. Yet, according to the amount of news coverage on our local Free Press newspaper and the Canadian CBC, you would think that they are the majority in Canada.

One day when Canada "goes broke" the government will finally learn to stop this nonstop handing out free money. I think that they feel guilty what supposedly their forefathers did. Apparently handing out free money is somehow atoning for their "sins." Strange way of thinking!
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It's probably easier for them to hand out money than make any real compensation for their "sins."

And no one tries to determine the racial background of a country based on the amount of news coverage given to each race so that's a completely nonsensical comment. It also might lead one to believe you'd rather ignore the Aboriginals and whatever "sins" were imposed on them.
 
Affirmative action never affected me one way or the other that I'm aware of.
Never applied to me either ... see profile picture.
And it was a federal policy most of my life I think.
I still found and wasted many golden opportunities :ROFLMAO:
On the other hand, I think I did okay. Haven't worked for anyone and been retired since I was 53.
 
I knew that 'Veteran Preference' would enter into this thread.

Yes, a Veteran can get 5 extra points for some goverment jobs,
and 10 points to Disabled Veterans.

When a person enlists, they set aside any advancement in the civilian work force.
Be it 4 years, 6 years or 20+ years of commitment to their country, it is a Commitment.

I realize this upsets some and they think it unfair.
To me, it seems to be a small thank you for putting things on hold.

It Is Not A Hand-Out.
 
againstthegrain said:
Hooray for them! They were harmed and got compensated. Hopefully as a result the company changed their ways.
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Long before the wine tasting tour I saw another kind of male discrimination that has always bothered me. While in college I got a summer job working in the sheet metal fabrication plant of a large heating company. I did pretty routine work punching holes, grinding down welds, and the like. There were 40 or 50 men engaged in that work, and all union members. The company’s administrative offices were down a hall, in the same building, but separate from the factory. There were two men’s restrooms, next to each other. One was labeled Men and the other, Gentlemen.
 
Feelslikefar said:
I knew that 'Veteran Preference' would enter into this thread.

Yes, a Veteran can get 5 extra points for some goverment jobs,
and 10 points to Disabled Veterans.

When a person enlists, they set aside any advancement in the civilian work force.
Be it 4 years, 6 years or 20+ years of commitment to their country, it is a Commitment.

I realize this upsets some and they think it unfair.
To me, it seems to be a small thank you for putting things on hold.

It Is Not A Hand-Out.
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When you join up, what is the minimum time you have to serve?
 
ohioboy said:
When you join up, what is the minimum time you have to serve?
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That is not the criteria for Veteran's Preference Points for Federal job placement.
Even parents and unmarried spouses of veterans are eligible for the preference points under some circumstances.
Here is an easy to read straight forward article that explains ... Veteran's Preference Points

EDIT: But you answer your question, the minimum time in service varies. My minimum time was longer than most because of the Advanced Electronic Schools I was required to attend for my rating. The schools were two years long and in order to get those schools, I was required to enlist for a minimum of 6yrs. Part of the reason being that in the civilian world, that education could easily be turned into making MUCH more money than paid by the military for enlisted service and the military wanted something back out of the benefit of advanced schooling.

And a snippet from the linked article ...
(I qualify for 10 points but have never used them)

Types of Preference​


5-Point Preference​


Five points are added to the passing examination score or rating of a veteran who served:


  • During a war

  • For more than 180 consecutive days, other than for training, any time on or after Sep. 11, 2001

  • In a campaign or expedition for which a campaign medal has been authorized. Any Armed Forces Expeditionary medal or campaign badge, including Afghanistan (Operations Enduring Freedom (OEF), Iraqi Freedom (OIF)), Bosnia (Operations Joint Endeavor, Joint Guard, and Joint Forge), Global War on Terrorism, Persian Gulf, and others may qualify for preference.

10-Point Preference​


Ten points are added to the passing examination score of:


  • A veteran who served any time and who (1) has a present service connected disability or (2) is receiving compensation, disability retirement benefits, or pension from the military or the VA. Individuals who received a Purple Heart qualify as disabled veterans.

  • An unmarried spouse of certain deceased veterans, a spouse of a veteran unable to work because of a service-connected disability, and

  • A parent of a veteran who died in service or who is permanently and totally disabled.

How it Works​


If you meet the criteria for preference and achieve a score of 70 or higher either by a written examination or an evaluation of your experience and education, you will have whichever point preference you qualify for added to your rating.


Entitlement to veterans' preference does not guarantee a job. There are many ways an agency can fill a vacancy other than by appointment from a list of eligible candidates.
 

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