Vaccines and Vaccinations

Mike

Mike

Well-known Member
Location
London
When I was a child, most here probably have the same memories,
about getting vaccinated.

I remember they put the vaccine on the skin of my arm, then scratched
it with a needle, to get it into the arm, a bit silly we might think, to get
it into us, but it seemed to work, each different vaccine only needed to
be applied once, now I doubt that it was the method of applying it that
made it stronger, but I wonder why these modern drugs against Covid
need to be repeated at regular intervals, are they not strong enough,
are they really Vaccines?

We had several different ones, but still only once, maybe the people at
the Pharmaceutical companies thought that the older methods were
no good in modern times, it made me wonder.

What do you think, am I just raving, or do I have a point?

Mike.
 

Mike said:
When I was a child, most here probably have the same memories,
about getting vaccinated.

I remember they put the vaccine on the skin of my arm, then scratched
it with a needle, to get it into the arm, a bit silly we might think, to get
it into us, but it seemed to work, each different vaccine only needed to
be applied once, now I doubt that it was the method of applying it that
made it stronger, but I wonder why these modern drugs against Covid
need to be repeated at regular intervals, are they not strong enough,
are they really Vaccines?

We had several different ones, but still only once, maybe the people at
the Pharmaceutical companies thought that the older methods were
no good in modern times, it made me wonder.

What do you think, am I just raving, or do I have a point?

Mike.
Click to expand...
You're saying what a lot of people have realized. The covid "shot" is not a vaccine in the traditional sense of the word.
 
Vaccines take years to develop to get it right. Once they have a formula that seems to work the subjects are followed for a few years to see how well they work and how side effects are.

The Covid vaccine was rushed. Once they had something that seemed to work they they started using it. The final stage where they take years to follow up subjects didn't happen, the public is the final stage.

The Covid vaccine only last about 4 months.

Which is more profitable? One shot per person or 4+ shots per year?
 

Thank you for your replies.

So these injections are wrongly named then, they are not
a vaccine, but they are a delay, with a little immunity boost
thrown in for good measure.

Maybe they call it a vaccine because people would think it
more powerful than any other kind of chemical remedy.

Mike.
 
Mike said:
Thank you for your replies.

So these injections are wrongly named then, they are not
a vaccine, but they are a delay, with a little immunity boost
thrown in for good measure.

Maybe they call it a vaccine because people would think it
more powerful than any other kind of chemical remedy.

Mike.
Click to expand...
Mike, I don't think they're wrongly named, but it's clear that they aren't called immunizations for good reason. But what they're called is beside the point; the problem is that the covid virus is not acting like any other virus. It "figured out" how to evade the covid vaccine...the mRNA one, anyway. That's why medical scientists want to try the Novavax....though there's a huge debate now about whether or not a non-mRNA vaccine will cause the same serious problems as "long-covid".
 
Becky1951 said:
Vaccines take years to develop to get it right. Once they have a formula that seems to work the subjects are followed for a few years to see how well they work and how side effects are.

The Covid vaccine was rushed. Once they had something that seemed to work they they started using it. The final stage where they take years to follow up subjects didn't happen, the public is the final stage.

The Covid vaccine only last about 4 months.
Click to expand...
Good points @Becky1951 and I mostly agree with you.

It is true that vaccines normally take years to develop, however in this case a judgement was made that the risks of doing it quickly outweighed the risks of Covid. We can argue how right or wrong that was, but it is what happened. I remember back when President Trump strongly supported funding and fast tracking for the RNA vaccine I was skeptical, but I believe I was proven wrong. I do think it has been worth it, even if it has not worked as well as promised.

You are also right that years of follow up are needed to really understand the impacts, I am hoping we can take advantage of the hundreds of millions who have now been vaccinated to do that. I think we are. Not the way it would normally be done, but now that its happened hopefully we can objectively look at lessons learned.
Becky1951 said:
Which is more profitable? One shot per person or 4+ shots per year?
Click to expand...
Probably more profit in more injections. I know big Pharma needs regulation, but without profit from drugs they will not be developing new ones.
Mike said:
So these injections are wrongly named then, they are not
a vaccine
Click to expand...
I looked up a definition for vaccine, Google says:

a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

I don't know enough about it to be sure if it fits that definition or not. But it is just semantics, does it matter what we call it? Geraldo Rivera wanted to call it "The Trump" to honor Trump's support for its development. That would have been fine with me, what matters is how it works and if people use it.

Just a non-political disclosure I do support getting the vaccine, I have had 4 shots. I do not like most things about Trump, but I do believe in giving credit where credit is due.
 
I'm not a scientist, but I trust the opinions of those who are. Covid hit with such speed and severity that there was little time for the experts to come up with a lasting cure. We are probably lucky that they came up with a means of reducing the severity of this infection as quickly as they did. Perhaps in 3 or 4 years they will come up with a "lasting" booster that virtually eliminates this virus....but, in the meantime, the "boosters" are probably the only way to keep the number of infections and deaths to a minimum.
 
Mike said:
Thank you for your replies.

So these injections are wrongly named then, they are not
a vaccine, but they are a delay, with a little immunity boost
thrown in for good measure.

Maybe they call it a vaccine because people would think it
more powerful than any other kind of chemical remedy.

Mike.
Click to expand...
And it helps sell it.
 
The vaccines we got as children were for measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough. These strains of contagious viruses did not appear to mutate quickly like the COVID viruses of today.
One vaccine for polio was all that was needed to eradicate the virus from spreading and eventually there was a minimal threat to the country. You wipe out the virus and there is no need for another vaccine. The same with small pox vaccine.
Even today, health organizations recommend you get the DPT booster again for tetanus (only good for 10 years), and whooping cough booster.
You know we need an annual flu shot, and the pneumonia vaccine every 5 or so years. It depends on how strong the virus appears to be in any given year (flu), and which combination of antibodies they recommend. It doesn't prevent the flu, but gives your immune system a boost and a fighting chance to deny the virus entry to your system.
 
WELL WE CAN ADD Monkey Pox vaccine now, that we will
have to start getting....since nature decided to throw another
virus in the works....wonder how long I'll be able to use my arms??????
 
This has been said before but I guess bears repeating:
A coronavirus bears no resemblance to cold/flu viruses, so we cannot quite equate one with the other. It is like comparing an elephant to a chameleon. They are both animals, but nobody could mistake one for the other. But the idea of annual shots is in fact, quite possible.

The coronavirus vaccine - and yes, it IS a vaccine - was developed quickly because of the use of a technology called mRNA, aka Messenger RNA. Per the CDC:
" Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades. Interest has grown in these vaccines because they can be developed in a laboratory using readily available materials. This means vaccines can be developed and produced in large quantities faster than with other methods for making vaccines.

mRNA vaccines have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). As soon as the necessary information about the virus that causes COVID-19 was available, scientists began designing the mRNA instructions for cells to build the unique spike protein into an mRNA vaccine.

Future mRNA vaccine technology may allow for one vaccine to provide protection against multiple diseases, thus decreasing the number of shots needed for protection against common vaccine-preventable diseases.

Beyond vaccines, cancer research has used mRNA to trigger the immune system to target specific cancer cells. "

The original COVID vaccines were developed for the first wave of COVID, the SARS-CoV2. They also were effective with the Delta variant, which caused the second wave as (similar to many coronaviruses) the coronavirus mutated, proving to be a more infectious strain.

This is why with each mutation - we are now on ba.4 and ba.5 (i.e., Beta variants), with ba.5 rapidly becoming the more prevalent form of coronavirus - there was, and is, constant testing to see if the original vaccine remains still effective against these successive mutations.

They have found that booster shots - like your annual flu shot - help strengthen your immune system to have a better chance at fighting off a specific illness.

Viruses are amazing organisms. They are not truly alive in the strict definition of Life, yet they reproduce and alter themselves as necessary to ensure survival.

The COVID variants have not proven more fatal, but the coronavirus has altered its physical make-up so that it is more infectious. Thus, pharma companies are working on updating the original vaccine to better attack the newly altered coronaviruses.

As for those who decry the mRNA technology, it should be noted that the recently approved Novavax vaccine was made with traditional technology, and has been approved this past week.

Consider how many more people would have died if we had to wait 2 years for the traditional method, which would also have been much slower to produce in quantities.

HTH!
 
Right Now said:
The vaccines we got as children were for measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough. These strains of contagious viruses did not appear to mutate quickly like the COVID viruses of today.
Click to expand...
All viruses mutate, all living or semi-living things do, they have to. However you are correct that the rates of mutation vary. RNA viruses like Covid mutate more quickly than DNA viruses.

Other well known RNA viruses include the common cold, influenza, SARS, MERS, Dengue Virus, hepatitis C, hepatitis E, West Nile fever, Ebola virus disease, rabies, polio, mumps, and measles. However even with RNA viruses mutation rates vary a lot, see this article Viruses and Evolution for a good discussion of viruses and mutations.

DNA viruses cause fewer well known human diseases, but include herpes, warts, smallpox, and monkey pox.

We are paying a lot more attention to Covid and so are aware of all identified mutations, not true of any other virus. I suspect that may cause us to think it mutates a lot more than other viruses. I guess its also possible that conventional vaccines are better for preventing new mutants, again making the mutations appear rarer to us, but that is just my speculation.
 
Mike said:
I remember they put the vaccine on the skin of my arm, then scratched
it with a needle, to get it into the arm, a bit silly we might think, to get
it into us, but it seemed to work, each different vaccine only needed to
be applied once, now I doubt that it was the method of applying it that
made it stronger, but I wonder why these modern drugs against Covid
need to be repeated at regular intervals, are they not strong enough,
are they really Vaccines?
Click to expand...
That is very interesting, I don't remember my early vaccinations and the later ones were injections.
Covid tho is not the only shot that has a series, the newer Shingles is a two shot series, the vaccine for that virus that causes cervical cancer is I think a three shot series, and I believe Hepatitis is a couple shot series. Pneumonia also a two shot because I had to get the second shot of that this year.

I tried googling skin vaccinations and from the few sites I looked at it sounds like dermal vaccination has been around from the early 1900s and that studies in the mid 1900s had conflicting results about whether it was better or not. Then some more studies in recent years that had better study control (sounded like to me) think it is a superior method.

Then, I found the below info from a little over a year ago, so apparently people do still try to develop skin type immunizations. Maybe in the future we'll get that type.

What advantage does skin vaccination offer compared with regular vaccination?​

Roukens: ‘A huge problem is that there are currently not enough supplies to vaccinate everyone at the same time. With skin vaccination, we can vaccinate more people using the same amount of vaccine. This means people would be vaccinated sooner.’​

Is this a new method?​

‘No, skin vaccination isn’t new. We have been using this method for some time now for rabies and yellow fever vaccinations. It is an excellent way to use the vaccine as sparingly as possible. We now want to find out whether the Moderna vaccine is also suitable for immunisation via the skin. We first plan to test its safety and will then work out how much vaccine is needed to provide good protection.’​
So how does vaccination via the skin work?​
‘The skin is full of dendritic cells, which act as the guards of the immune system. When they detect a virus, they warn other immune cells, which go on to attack the virus. Skin vaccination involves delivering a small amount of the vaccine precisely where these guards are located. This ensures that no vaccine is wasted. The dendritic cells absorb the vaccine and initiate the immune response. This should ultimately protect us against coronavirus.’​

Will we soon be using skin vaccinations?​

‘Possibly, but possibly not.’​
 
Mike said:
I wonder why these modern drugs against Covid
need to be repeated at regular intervals, are they not strong enough,
are they really Vaccines?
Click to expand...
The virus keeps mutating (changing form and ability to infect), I suppose in ways that are not predictable.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/01/covid-19-vaccines-do-not-last-long-why-booster/

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...virus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html
 
Last edited:
Is she saying that we should get a shot of Paxlovid or only if we get the virus. It is kind of ambiguous.
 
Mike said:
Thank you for your replies.

So these injections are wrongly named then, they are not
a vaccine, but they are a delay, with a little immunity boost
thrown in for good measure.

Maybe they call it a vaccine because people would think it
more powerful than any other kind of chemical remedy.

Mike.
Click to expand...
When I see the word vaccine I think of Edward Jenner and cow pox.
Modern vaccines have nothing to do with cows*. Early ones produced antibodies using horses or chicken eggs but still called vaccines.

Other words for vaccination these days include inoculation and immunisation While technically they may have slightly different meanings they are used interchangeably. Also used in common jargon are words like jab, shot and booster.

I don't think we need another word for some serum designed to fight a new virus or bacterium.


* vacca, Latin word for cow.
 

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