Very quiet this morning. Are you all in church?

Well, I do go to church and have done since my mid thirties. Before that I was a vocal atheist.
I would never consent to being manipulated or controlled and reject all of the nonsense emanating for the USA, including young earth creationism.
So does everyone else in our congregation.

We don't regard the scriptures as the word of God but as teachings from which we try to find the will of God i.e. how we should be living our lives and how we should be treating others and comfort in the time of trouble and sadness. We apply our intelligence and free will to what we learn as befits people living in the 21st century. We empower the children to do the same.

Is church fun ? That depends on what you call fun.
People who come to our church on Sundays find acceptance, hear some scripture and a short talk on how it relates to today's issues, we sing a bit, rather badly, and according to our means and inclination, we contribute some money towards the cost of paying the minister his stipend as well as the costs of keeping the building open and in good condition. All giving is anonymous so no-one keeps a check on individuals. Afterwards we have a very pleasant morning tea and people linger and chat for ages. Then most disperse to their homes but a few of us decamp to the local licenced club for lunch.

That last sentence points to what might be the result of attending a church - fellowship, companionship, friendship - call it what you like. It doesn't happen on day one, let's get real, but after a while people get to know you and you them. Like seeks out like and bonds form. This process is aided by finding out what happens at the church through the week. Some churches are more social than others that may be more evangelical. If the only groups on offer are prayer and bible study then I wouldn't join. Ours has support groups for families, including families with disabled children, playgroups, a craft (charity knitting) group and a seniors group. There's also a night tennis club.

Ina, I had experiences of church as a child that turned me off too. I'm grown up now and in charge of myself and I've found that as an adult I still have much to learn and I also have much to contribute.
 
Yes Ina, if I was confronted with nothing but wall to wall fundamentalist churches I too would abstain but please don't think that the whole world is like that. A church is just a collection of people with a common commitment, hopefully to the way of living taught by one Jesus of Nazareth and explored by many generations since that time, but not always successfully.
 
Of course. But the topic was church as a source of fun.
Some people think Hillsong is fun.
I don't, but it is an American derivative, so perhaps fun is a feature of some churches in the US.

I don't find Glee or citizens clubs much fun either.
A chaque oiseau, son nid est beau, I guess.
 
I don`t go to church either but I do love the organs and some older hymns... and also I try to live by the golden rule..
I used to sit at the steps at the church next door to us when we were kids... and just listen to the organ playing ,
as my mother was a pianist she would play in local hotels well I loved both these kind of music .. I guess its what floats
your boat , each are different and our likes and dislikes are as well.. I just love to hear the organ playing in a chapel in the moonlight ! eerie for some? not for me its peaceful and so serene...
 
Hey, I love Gregorian chants but you won't find me in Church to listen to them, CDs roool.

There was bunch of bright young things from Hillsong turned up to entertain at Mum's hostel, I caught the last few minutes of it and it sounded ok, except for the lyrics, but the looks exchanged among the oldies was even more entertaining. Raised eyebrows and bewildered expressions everywhere. ;)
 
Warrigal said:
A chaque oiseau, son nid est beau, I guess.
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"A shocking old soul, his son is his boyfriend"?!?

Is THAT what they're teaching in your church??? ;)

An individual church might a pleasant experience, but no matter how hard I try I don't think I would be able to forget that it's part of a larger corporation, one whose main focus is always getting more members and hence more money.
 
The point I have been trying to make, Phil, is that it is not about seeking a pleasant experience on the part of the adherent. That is not one of the promises. Quite the reverse is the often outcome. Nor is it about accumulating wealth on behalf of the "corporation". It is about sharing wealth though, which is why the wealthy have corrupted the message over the ages.

Where on earth did you get that translation? :D
 
Warrigal said:
The point I have been trying to make, Phil, is that it is not about seeking a pleasant experience on the part of the adherent. That is not one of the promises. Quite the reverse is the often outcome. Nor is it about accumulating wealth on behalf of the "corporation". It is about sharing wealth though, which is why the wealthy have corrupted the message over the ages.
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I understand the original intent of the church - well, my understanding and yours might well be different - but modern-day non-profit corporations are having a tough time surviving with the economy being what it is. I can't imagine one that would put aside income considerations for more altruistic ones. I think you can be sure that if all of your contributions were to dry up, your church might begin the long, slow slide into oblivion that has happened repeatedly over here.

Where on earth did you get that translation? :D
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I was just kidding with it. I sounded it out phonetically and that's the first thing that came to mind. ;)
 
I think you can be sure that if all of your contributions were to dry up, your church might begin the long, slow slide into oblivion that has happened repeatedly over here.
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But they are drying up. My denomination has the oldest age profile in Australia and we are all getting older.
In time it will die but that is the nature of things - material and spiritual.

Timeless truth I speak to you: Unless a grain of wheat falls and dies in the ground, it remains alone, but if it dies, it yields much fruit.”
Jn12:24
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Oblivion is not inevitable. Death is not necessarily oblivion.
 
Warrigal said:
But they are drying up. My denomination has the oldest age profile in Australia and we are all getting older.
In time it will die but that is the nature of things - material and spiritual.
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Well, the church has been around for 2,000 years, give or take a few centuries - they're still here. If they change radically and become the social club that you're referring to they might survive another 2,000 ...


Oblivion is not inevitable. Death is not necessarily oblivion.
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Therefore death is not inevitable?

Disagree.
 
SifuPhil said:
Well, the church has been around for 2,000 years, give or take a few centuries - they're still here. If they change radically and become the social club that you're referring to they might survive another 2,000 ...
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Au contraire, Phil. Social clubs don't last but that is what CeeCee seems to be looking for. It is possible to find a faith community that is convivial and social but that is not its raison d'etre. Just a spin off from the core philosophy.

Therefore death is not inevitable?
Disagree.
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Where did I say that death was not inevitable? I said oblivion was not but I was talking about things that are more enduring than mere flesh and blood. Some things exist in hearts and minds and outlive both of those host organs. Like fire they can exist as almost unnoticeable embers in a book, a painting, a song or an oral story and may flare into life later when the conditions are again favourable. Renaissance does happen.
 
Warrigal said:
Au contraire, Phil. Social clubs don't last but that is what CeeCee seems to be looking for. It is possible to find a faith community that is convivial and social but that is not its raison d'etre. Just a spin off from the core philosophy.
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And since that core philosophy is increasingly being abandoned, the only way to survive is to emphasize the social aspects.


Where did I say that death was not inevitable?
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You made a logical construct: if A=B and C=B, then A=C.

I said oblivion was not but I was talking about things that are more enduring than mere flesh and blood. Some things exist in hearts and minds and outlive both of those host organs. Like fire they can exist as almost unnoticeable embers in a book, a painting, a song or an oral story and may flare into life later when the conditions are again favourable. Renaissance does happen.
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Is this a faith-based determination or a hypothesis or a theory or ... ?

Why haven't any living humans seen these resurrections? Why aren't they documented on video? Why don't we see them when a person dies?
 
You said:

Oblivion is not inevitable. Death is not necessarily oblivion.
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Reconstructing and combining the two clauses while deleting the common denominator:

Death is not necessarily inevitable
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In a spiritual sense, perhaps not - no one knows. But in a physical sense I maintain that it is an erroneous statement.
 
Using your technique I arrive at "oblivion is not oblivion".
Mine makes as much sense as your conclusion - i.e. bugger all. :tongue:

See how easy it is do argue about irrelevancies rather than crack the kernel of a topic.
 
SifuPhil said:
Well, the kernel seems to be that you think you're going to live forever, and I think I'm going to die.

We'll see who's right in the end.
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You assume wrongly. People die and necessarily so and so do some ideas but there are other ideas which, if not exactly eternal are very long lived. They leap from host to host. That is what I have been arguing.

Getting back to churches - it is not their mission to preserve themselves. Their mission is to pass on teachings and values which should, if they are 'living words", outlive the institutions that fostered them.

I have no expectation of any kind of afterlife but for some time I will live on in the memories of certain people who knew me intimately.
 
Warrigal said:
You assume wrongly. People die and necessarily so and so do some ideas but there are other ideas which, if not exactly eternal are very long lived. They leap from host to host. That is what I have been arguing.

Getting back to churches - it is not their mission to preserve themselves. Their mission is to pass on teachings and values which should, if they are 'living words", outlive the institutions that fostered them.

I have no expectation of any kind of afterlife but for some time I will live on in the memories of certain people who knew me intimately.
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You stinker, you - you led me down a blind path! ;)
 
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