Who are we? (The thread on religion, that Lennon's "Imagine" receives not a single "Like"!)

officerripley said:
So you like a guy who was worth about 800 million when he died?
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I liked some of Lennon's songs in the post-Beatle era. I don't care about his net worth. But if you don't understand the blatant hypocrisy of someone with that much money telling others to "imagine no possessions" (and making a lot of money by doing so) then I can't help you.

I don't know much about Lennon as a person. Some of what I've read portrays him as a drug-crazed, abusive jerk. However, many great artists were horrible people, so that's nothing new.
 

officerripley said:
Not too controversial for me. However, I think socialism began earlier than that: many reputable sources think that the hunter/gatherer societies--societies that humans spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving to live in, societies that humans spent at least 25,000 years living in--were mostly socialist, some of course less so, but all at least somewhat, socialist.
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I'm not very convinced with this, as the tribes/societies of hunters/gatherers still had their "leaders" (who always got the lion's share). Furthermore, I believe that the status of the female member of the species was way lower than what it should be. I think that Christ was the first one to state that sharing should become a duty and not a part of charity.
 
officerripley said:
Not too controversial for me. However, I think socialism began earlier than that: many reputable sources think that the hunter/gatherer societies--societies that humans spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving to live in, societies that humans spent at least 25,000 years living in--were mostly socialist, some of course less so, but all at least somewhat, socialist.
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So what? Should we go back to hunting and gathering?
 

CAKCy said:
I'm not sure there was a suggestion by @officerripley to go back to hunting and gathering. It was merely a hypothesis as to the beginnings of Socialism.
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Yes. I understand that. Officerripley and I occupy different ideological quadrants. I was being snarky and unpleasant, for which I apologize. But socialism is not the answer to anything. If the failed experiments of the 20th Century didn't make that clear to everyone, I'm not sure what will.
 
JimBob1952 said:
But socialism is not the answer to anything. If the failed experiments of the 20th Century didn't make that clear to everyone, I'm not sure what will.
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The failed experiments of the 20th Century have failed because of people leading and because of people not being educated and mature enough to embrace Socialism. A bad president elected in a democratic country is not a failure of democratic system but of the president elected and the people who have voted for him/her.
 
CAKCy said:
One may have one's POV on any song. I can't help thinking of the fortunes of tele-evangelists preaching Christianity. As I already said: The message of the song is very dear to me. The critique of Mr. Matthew Walter, who appears to be an expert on all subjects, is of no importance to me.
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I'm glad it's dear to you, and maybe someday you will get to live in a world without religions, countries or possessions.
 
While I see the hypocrisy in parts of this song, I agree with the "no religion" line. I think religion is responsible for more bloodshed, cruelty, wars, lack of respect, belief in nonsense, discrimination, repression of women, and the list goes on and on.... than any other evils mankind has come up with.
 
CAKCy said:
Thank you for your reply!

It is not a personal matter. I have been and will continue to be to the very end a "dreamer". I would love to see people realizing that nothing, really, separates us, other that the artificial walls that we build between us.

I was disappointed by the (non) reaction of the people on this forum. I would hate to think that I'm the only "dreamer" around.... :(
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Well, you have to admit that your opening statement:
"I'd rather believe that I'm the "village crazy", or that I'm on everybody's ignore list, than think that nobody has a little bit of a "dreamer" inside them..."
didn't really give us much to work with. So, we're talking about John Lennon's "Imagine", or just being hopeful about humanity, or about being a "dreamer" in general?
 
CAKCy said:
The failed experiments of the 20th Century have failed because of people leading and because of people not being educated and mature enough to embrace Socialism. A bad president elected in a democratic country is not a failure of democratic system but of the president elected and the people who have voted for him/her.
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Democracy is a political system that, generally, works. Socialism is an economic system that never works.
 
Sunny said:
While I see the hypocrisy in parts of this song, I agree with the "no religion" line. I think religion is responsible for more bloodshed, cruelty, wars, lack of respect, belief in nonsense, discrimination, repression of women, and the list goes on and on.... than any other evils mankind has come up with.
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Welcome to the conversation! :)

There may be an indirect hypocrisy in the song, though nobody knows what Lennon would do with his money if his dream became reality.

I don't think that religion is the cause of all evil. I would think greed is the main cause of all problems on the planet. Religion is just a "tool" in the hands of the shakers and movers to control the masses towards the goal, which is to make more money.

My views on religion would make this post a very long one, so I'll postpone them for another thread. :)
 
Nathan said:
Well, you have to admit that your opening statement:
"I'd rather believe that I'm the "village crazy", or that I'm on everybody's ignore list, than think that nobody has a little bit of a "dreamer" inside them..."
didn't really give us much to work with. So, we're talking about John Lennon's "Imagine", or just being hopeful about humanity, or about being a "dreamer" in general?
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Thank you for your input! You are right! My post was very short and not clarifying my point.

My disappointment came from the observation that in a discussion about religion and the differences between people hating and killing each other, Lennon's "Imagine", talking about a peaceful and harmonic future of humanity, didn't receive a warm welcome by anyone, i.e. the lack of "dreamers" towards that goal.
 
JimBob1952 said:
Democracy is a political system that, generally, works. Socialism is an economic system that never works.
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Socialism (which is the future, btw, if we want the planet to survive) is an economic system that was never given a fair chance to prove itself. People's immaturity and illiteracy and the greed of the leading hierarchy were/are the reasons of its non-working.
 
CAKCy said:
One may have one's POV on any song. I can't help thinking of the fortunes of tele-evangelists preaching Christianity.
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I can't help thinking of all the gigantic Christian charities that provide food and medical care for millions of children around the world, or the system of laws begun with the ten commandments without which the wealth and the women would simply go to whoever had the biggest club. Rape, theft, murder, neglect of old people, lack of support for women and their children, all would just have to be suffered through by the weakest people.

In spite of your televangelists, pedophile priests and fanatical terrorists, the vast, vast majority of people who follow one of the great religions find strength, comfort and guidance from it.
 
Della said:
I can't help thinking of all the gigantic Christian charities that provide food and medical care for millions of children around the world, or the system of laws begun with the ten commandments without which the wealth and the women would simply go to whoever had the biggest club. Rape, theft, murder, neglect of old people, lack of support for women and their children, all would just have to be suffered through by the weakest people.

In spite of your televangelists, pedophile priests and fanatical terrorists, the vast, vast majority of people who follow one of the great religions find strength, comfort and guidance from it.
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Welcome to the discussion! :)

I have already said higher that I won't post my views on religion on this thread because it would be a long, off-topic post. I will just say, for the time being, that I agree with many of your arguments.
 
1) Not sure which 'religion' thread you posted it on but i do know that if people become redundant (people repeating what others have said in part because the threads grow so long and time consuming to find where you left off last time you looked at it) or descend into personal bickering in their responses i don't go back to threads unless someone responds (not just reacts with emoji) to one my comments.

2) As much as i value my online connections, my whole life isn't being on the internet, and pretty sure i'm
"not the only one"

3) Maybe it's because i've been the 'outsider', oddball my whole life---but it never occurred to me complain because no-one even 'reacts' to something i've posted. Shoot, when i was here barely a month i started a thread that was a 'spin off' of another thread. Either i didn't explain myself well or nobody was interested. No big deal. i'm often not just interested but fascinated by things that other folks aren't.

4) You do realize, i hope, that on the one hand he's talking about dreaming and working toward a better world, human understanding at the max--but in the process he is criticizing every religion that conceives of the Heaven/Hell dichotomy (what atheists often call 'fantasies', 'delusions') and by extension religious beliefs in general. So A) how do you move toward the dream of 'all the people' coming together in peace when in your very call for it you disrespect the beliefs of billions of people? B) Some devout believers might not even want to get into that particular debate so easier to just not react or respond.

5) Lennon's "Imagine" is one of the most overposted things on the web. i have to crank up my ability to compartmentalize everytime i see it posted (cause the earworm latches on and i hear it in my head, i am right now)--cause Lennon was not always a nice guy to his first family or the other Beatles. Sadly he was murdered before he had the chance to recognize and own his own failures to live up to how his behaviors contradicted what he was 'dreaming' and preaching in that song.

As @Warrigal said on one the threads talking about religion--we're all hypocrites to some degree, tho i think sometimes even the best of us forget that there are few principles that can be applied 100% of the time, in ALL situations without risking/incurring physical/mental/emotional harm ourselves.
 
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Devi said:
Maybe it would do to look up Lennon's beating of Yoko Ono.
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First wife too. And had little contact with Julian, his older son after he married Yoko Ona and as with the Beatles breakup some fans blamed her for that, but at least one source says she reached out to Julian after John's death and encouraged a relationship between Julian and Sean, her son by Lennon.
 
feywon said:
1) Not sure which 'religion' thread you posted it on but i do know that if people become redundant (people repeating what others have said in part because the threads grow so long and time consuming to find where you left off last time you looked at it) or descend into personal bickering in their responses i don't go back to threads unless someone responds (not just reacts with emoji) to one my comments.

2) As much as i value my online connections, my whole life isn't being on the internet, and pretty sure i'm
"not the only one"

3) Maybe it's because i've been the 'outsider', oddball my whole life---but it never occurred to me complain because no-one even 'reacts' to something i've posted. Shoot, when i was here barely a month i started a thread that was a 'spin off' of another thread. Either i didn't explain myself well or nobody was interested. No big deal. i'm often not just interested but fascinated by things that other folks aren't.

4) You do realize, i hope, that on the one hand he's talking about dreaming and working toward a better world, human understanding at the max--but in the process he is criticizing every religion that conceives of the Heaven/Hell dichotomy (what atheists often call 'fantasies', 'delusions') and by extension religious beliefs in general. So A) how do you move toward the dream of 'all the people' coming together in peace when in your very call for it you disrespect the beliefs of billions of people. B) Some devout believers might not even want to get into that particular debate so easier to just not react or respond.

5) Lennon's "Imagine" is one of the most overposted things on the web. i have to crank up my ability to compartmentalize everytime i see it posted (cause the earworm latches on and i hear it in my head, i am right now)--cause Lennon was not always a nice guy to his first family or the other Beatles. Sadly he was murdered before he had the chance to recognize and own his own failures to live up to how his behaviors contradicted what he was 'dreaming' and preaching in that song.

As @Warrigal said on one the threads talking about religion--we're all hypocrites to some degree, tho i think sometimes even the best of us forget that there are few principles that can be applied 100% of the time, in ALL situations without risking/incurring physical/mental/emotional harm ourselves.
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Thank you for the very detailed post! I knew that if you showed up you would give me a "hard" time! :)

1. The thread I was referring to was What Do Real Muslims Believe? I completely understand your actions when going through threads.

2. Loud and clear! :)

3. My disappointment was not because I didn't get any reactions to my post. It was that the message of the song didn't get a single reaction.

4. I will try to reply to this in a different thread where I will state my views on religion. I believe that the main message of the song is in the line "Nothing to kill or die for". Re Lennon, I'm not an apologist of the man or his actions.

5. Hypocrisy is the result of one not following the values/principles one set for oneself. Not those given by external sources.
 

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