Why do we believe in God

Actually, if trends continue, Islam will come to dominate. At least looking at it today. So most people will believe in Allah and Mohammad. The world has become so connected, ideas are spinning all around us.

To quote:

By 2040, [in the US] Muslims will replace Jews as the nation's second-largest religious group after Christians. And by 2050, the U.S. Muslim population is projected to reach 8.1 million, or 2.1% of the nation's total population — nearly twice the share of today.

There are now 2.2 billion Christians in the world. Islam is on its heels with 1.97 billion. But due to a higher Muslim fertility rate (2.9 children per woman on average, versus 2.6), Pew Research projects that sometime around 2075, Islam will be the world's dominant religion.
Yes, there is quite the competition for who's god is the "real" god. What was that show a long time ago..."What's my line". :) The new generations will have access to friends of all religions, so they will become more homogenized. The wars and hatred will have to give way to trust and friendship if people want to survive global warming.
 

Well, I could share why I no longer accept the Bible as anything inspired by God or God's word (If anyone is interested). As far anything supernatural, I do think there is something more than just random chance, but I wouldn't describe it as God. I could share that as well, if there is any interest.

I can't say. I mean, I'm interested, but I find this thread a bit of a mine field in that I don't want to come across as though I'm a rabid God hater. I'm really not.

For me, nothing in evolution is "random". It's just a long line of consequences of actions and interactions. No doubt, early on, it was fragile and things could have gone differently. As is the case, when you think about it, on the other planets in our solar system (excepting if we find evidence of life in the future). What became us isn't/wasn't perfect. The human body has many flaws, or things that could have been done better from a physiological point of view. Psychological too, I suppose. I personally would have preferred a design where the hole through which I breathe didn't also have the job of chewing and swallowing things. And what's the deal with all that gut microbiota? :D
 
You know what's impossible to me? That there is a God, a man, somewhere out there. You can't see him. He didn't come from anywhere, he's always been. He created EVERYTHING from.......... what? Nothing I guess. He then set in motion all the natural laws we know today, and he decided that what we really needed was the ability to do wrong. In fact, he's going to assume we're wrong and need to repent, or we won't go to some place called "heaven" (or whatever state of being we end up as) when we are no more. Don't get me started on the rib - which if true, is basically a millimeter away from abiogenesis, because we've never been able to grow a person from a rib.

What part of that sounds logical?

Life has yet to be proven to come from abiogenesis. Yet. Not knowing today doesn't make it impossible. There was a time when we didn't have cars to drive around in, they must have sounded quite impossible for quite some time - until they were manufactured. We simply have to go with the best explanation based on available evidence. Magic, which the biblical take suggests (call it miracles if you prefer) isn't going to fly, I'm afraid. I really don't know how I could ever close that gap.

Not to mention, the idea that "life suddenly emerging spontaneously from water after water came up with information and then decided coding it in DNA form" is completely wrong. No-one is suggesting there was a puddle of water, and suddenly life walked out of it. There were millions of different interactions over billions of years, step by step, bit by bit, that led us here. Not a single great event. Not a sudden moment. Just an interaction of infitesimal changes. We just need to understand what they were.

That said, if you can believe that an invisible God can suddenly create, oh I don't know, a talking snake - then I guess all bets are off. I mean, I'm not aware of a single snake that can talk today - where's the evidence to support it?

I think the answer for most Christians is - you need faith. In the world I inhabit I believe we simply need time for all the good work to be done by people smarter than myself. Slowly we are adding to our knowledge-base, learning new things, getting ever closer to the events that created us.

An interesting question for the non-believers would be: What would it take to make you believe? For believers, what would it take to end your belief in a God? I think the former would have an easier time answering, but I could be wrong.
You will find my reply to each of your objections here:
Oops, there was an error! | Varietygalore
 

As far anything supernatural, I do think there is something more than just random chance, but I wouldn't describe it as God.

"Supernatural" has always struck me as a problematic and unneeded category. What is natural is far more extensive than many assume. Being natural doesn't mean being known and understood by us. There is mystery in nature and nature in mystery.

I could share that as well, if there is any interest.

I am interested but rather than say the Bible is not the word of God I prefer to say there are many words of God which are just as true; of course one or the other may speak to us more than an other given our background and dispositions. God is like QM. If you think you understand it, then it is something else you've understood.
 
You will find my reply to each of your objections here:
Oops, there was an error! | Varietygalore
"Oops, there was an error". :(

"Supernatural" has always struck me as a problematic and unneeded category. What is natural is far more extensive than many assume. Being natural doesn't mean being known and understood by us. There is mystery in nature and nature in mystery.

Or the idea that because something is "natural", it won't do us any harm. :D

I am interested but rather than say the Bible is not the word of God I prefer to say there are many words of God which are just as true; of course one or the other may speak to us more than an other given our background and dispositions. God is like QM. If you think you understand it, then it is something else you've understood.

Bingo! Hence, not believing in God is just as valid. Still, the Bible isn't God. They're two different things. I see the words - written by man - and don't make the leap that it was somehow inspired by a God. As such, the Bible can be a good read, but that doesn't mean it's been sent/influenced by a God.
 
I'm going to see if I can check out a copy. Interesting!

Edited to say - no such luck. I'll try the San Francisco library system.
James Fowlers'book

Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development an
Is available on Amazon as a paperback for under $10. Sounds interesting.
Cognizance of our mortality is no doubt part of it.
I remember believing in God as a Young child. Not to say I wasn't influenced in some way either by a person or an idea. But I did not think about death. Too Young.
 
I play Christian music every day for hours https://dust-digital.com/cdn/shop/p...372372518302-LARGE_6839f8b2-8edb-4982-a502-in my house yet I still think that we simply cease to exist at death. If Heaven and Hell really existed, it would have to house trillions of people who died since 3,000 BC!

I *love* religious music from the 1920's through 1940's. This is a marvelous box set:

54971f60-7836-4942-9d81-dd8024f57f8b11283273372372518302-LARGE_6839f8b2-8edb-4982-a502-62e4d21660d0_1440x.jpg


Goodbye, Babylon
 
I play Christian music every day for hours in my house yet I still think that we simply cease to exist at death. If Heaven and Hell really existed, it would have to house trillions of people who died since 3,000 BC!

I like me a little Christian music too. Like ..


But ..

About 117 billion members of our species have ever been born on Earth.

How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth?
 
James Fowlers'book

Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development an
Is available on Amazon as a paperback for under $10. Sounds interesting.

I remember believing in God as a Young child. Not to say I wasn't influenced in some way either by a person or an idea. But I did not think about death. Too Young.

That is a reasonable price but I found this online for free. An explanation like this is about all I need. Too much other reading I hope to get to. 😉
 
I must have missed something again. Can you point me to where you described what you meant by “this meta dog”?

Of course I agree with you about consciousness. That is a line organisms can cross but mechanisms never will.
I'll have to find it but I'm calling it a meta dog even though it's not a high powered AI stuffed toy dog lt is mechanical and programmed to do stuff. But I do wonder how they got him him to like to watch television, If l get in front of the television for even a moment, for instance, he'll bark at me to get out of the way and I am serious and not making this up.
 
I remember believing in God as a Young child. Not to say I wasn't influenced in some way either by a person or an idea. But I did not think about death. Too Young.

Funny thing is my family just stopped going to church when I was in early elementary school. But I always thought about death, like Woody Allen but less morose. But I have no expectation of extra innings. Some say it is human nature to have both a human side and a divine side. The way I see it the human side is done at death but the divine side continues on in all its points of contact in the natural world. It will go on. Works for me.
 
I'll have to find it but I'm calling it a meta dog even though it's not a high powered AI stuffed toy dog lt is mechanical and programmed to do stuff. But I do wonder how they got him him to like to watch television, If l get in front of the television for even a moment, for instance, he'll bark at me to get out of the way and I am serious and not making this up.

Oh yeah an early robot thing. Cute.
 
I'll have to find it but I'm calling it a meta dog even though it's not a high powered AI stuffed toy dog lt is mechanical and programmed to do stuff. But I do wonder how they got him him to like to watch television, If l get in front of the television for even a moment, for instance, he'll bark at me to get out of the way and I am serious and not making this up.
lol He just did it again. I walked across to pick up my coffee cup.
 
You know what's impossible to me? That there is a God, a man, somewhere out there. You can't see him. He didn't come from anywhere, he's always been. He created EVERYTHING from.......... what? Nothing I guess. He then set in motion all the natural laws we know today, and he decided that what we really needed was the ability to do wrong. In fact, he's going to assume we're wrong and need to repent, or we won't go to some place called "heaven" (or whatever state of being we end up as) when we are no more. Don't get me started on the rib - which if true, is basically a millimeter away from abiogenesis, because we've never been able to grow a person from a rib.

What part of that sounds logical?

Life has yet to be proven to come from abiogenesis. Yet. Not knowing today doesn't make it impossible. There was a time when we didn't have cars to drive around in, they must have sounded quite impossible for quite some time - until they were manufactured. We simply have to go with the best explanation based on available evidence. Magic, which the biblical take suggests (call it miracles if you prefer) isn't going to fly, I'm afraid. I really don't know how I could ever close that gap.

Not to mention, the idea that "life suddenly emerging spontaneously from water after water came up with information and then decided coding it in DNA form" is completely wrong. No-one is suggesting there was a puddle of water, and suddenly life walked out of it. There were millions of different interactions over billions of years, step by step, bit by bit, that led us here. Not a single great event. Not a sudden moment. Just an interaction of infitesimal changes. We just need to understand what they were.

That said, if you can believe that an invisible God can suddenly create, oh I don't know, a talking snake - then I guess all bets are off. I mean, I'm not aware of a single snake that can talk today - where's the evidence to support it?

I think the answer for most Christians is - you need faith. In the world I inhabit I believe we simply need time for all the good work to be done by people smarter than myself. Slowly we are adding to our knowledge-base, learning new things, getting ever closer to the events that created us.

All very logical, but logic doesn't warm the heart nor soften the pain of human beings.
An interesting question for the non-believers would be: What would it take to make you believe? For believers, what would it take to end your belief in a God? I think the former would have an easier time answering, but I could be wrong.

This question I can answer from a personal perspective because I have inhabited both camps.

As a non believer I always declared that I would not believe in ghosts until I was confronted by one personally. I refused to fear anything supernatural until I experienced it personally.

To my utter astonishment I did have this experience of that which we call God (the Hebrews refused to speak the name) in the most unlikely setting. It was not in a lofty cathedral, nor atop a mountain gazing at the setting sun. It was in the auditorium of a hotel/motel where I was participating in an inservice for school councillors that lasted for 5 days.

I was there under false colours because I was just a science/maths teacher lacking even one lecture of psychology but the principal wanted to introduce a pastoral care program and she nominated me. The inservice mostly consisted of small group sessions in the motel rooms plus one plenary session per day in the auditorium. It was in one of the plenary sessions during an exercise called a guided walk that I had a most startling experience. Towards the end of it we were prompted to silently ask any question that came to mind and receive an answer.

Before you respond that I was under hypnosis, I will assure you that I was not. I once volunteered to be hypnotised by an entertainer and although I wanted to experience it, I failed to succumb. I resisted the suggestion. Apparently, I do not like losing control of myself.

When prompted to ask the question my response was immediate. Without thinking about it, a question seemed to rush up from the depths of my being. It was, "Am I a worthy person?"

Now you would think that I was looking for affirmation and you would be correct, but the answer was quite oblique. As quickly as the question was formed, the answer returned. The answer to my question was, "We are all unworthy."

My response was pretty much, "What the heck? Where did that come from?"

Two things I am sure of - that was not the answer I was seeking and that it came both from deep inside me and also from without.

From my days in Sunday School as a child I remembered the verse "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3, 23).

This experience shook me to the core. I spent days trying to process it. I tried to explain it away using logic until I had another strange experience that was unprompted and unsought.

One night, less than a week later, I woke from sleep after hearing my name being called. It sounded like my mother calling me to wake up when I was a child. I was rather difficult to wake in those days. Instantly, without thinking at all, I answered, not with, "Yes, Mum" but with the words "Yes, Lord". Then I rolled over and went back to sleep.

The next morning I felt very different. I felt elated and relieved of a great burden. I remembered the bible story of the boy Samuel being woken from sleep by a voice calling him by name. The boy was in the service of the prophet Eli. The story can be found in 1 Samuel 3. I also remember the story of Saul's road to Damaskus conversion from a persecutor to a disciple.

I chose to respond positively to both experiences. I knew that I could rationalise both away using science and logic but I chose not to. From that day to this I have followed the path of faith, my constant companion on the journey has been that which has no name, but which many call God. As we say at the end of each Sunday service - "We go in God, and God in us".

Have I rejected my interest in science? Absolutely not, but I place my trust in something that science cannot and does not prove, nor disprove.

Am I happy? Absolutely yes.
Do I believe that the Bible is to be taken literally? I do not.
I just know that faith in God, by whatever name you choose, is not a mind thing.
It is about trusting with the heart.
 
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what codes are you referring to?? What method of scientific research, study or belief will ever confirm or deny the existence of God.

here is what Issac Newton said:

Isaac Newton is perhaps the greatest scientist of all time. He believed that scientific investigation leads to a greater knowledge of God the Creator of the universe. As amazing as this may seem Newton devoted more of his time to studying the Bible and theology than to science and mathematics. His stepfather was a minister and Newton could often be found reading from his large library of religious texts. In addition, almost all of his fellow students and teachers from grammar school through college were impressed with Newton’s knowledge of the Bible.

Scientists of today, who doubt the existence of an all wise and powerful Creator, would do well to read the following quotes by this great scientist of yesteryear.

“Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who sets the planets in motion.”
1

“Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance.”

“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”

“All my discoveries have been made in answer to prayer.”

“A Heavenly Master governs all the world as Sovereign of the universe. We are astonished at Him by reason of His perfection, we honor Him and fall down before Him because of His unlimited power. From blind physical necessity, which is always and everywhere the same, no variety adhering to time and place could evolve, and all variety of created objects which represent order and life in the universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, Whom I call the Lord God.”

“He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.”

“The other part of the true religion is our duty to man. We must love our neighbour as ourselves, we must be charitable to all men for charity is the greatest of graces, greater than even faith or hope & covers a multitude of sins. We must be righteous & do to all men as we would they should do to us.”

“Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors.”

“As a blind man has no idea of colors, so we have no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things.”

“The wonderful arrangement and harmony of the cosmos would only originate in the plan of an almighty omniscient being. This is and remains my greatest comprehension.”

“I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily.”

“And from true lordship it follows that the true God is living, intelligent, and powerful; from the other perfections, that he is supreme, or supremely perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, he endures from eternity to eternity; and he is present from infinity to infinity; he rules all things, and he knows all things that happen or can happen.”

“If two angels were sent down from heaven – one to conduct an empire and the other to sweep the streets – they would feel no inclination to change employment because an angel would know that no matter what we are doing, it’s an opportunity to bring joy, deepen our understanding and expand our life.”

“There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history.”
 
That is precisely what Pantheists believe. Depending on the Pantheist, they may or may not assign the universe any mystical or human like qualities. They just worship the universe, and call it God. I don't know why they don't call it the universe and let it go at that, but when I asked why they call it God, the Pantheist I talked to just said he needed a God. I took him at his word, but of course, just like "something from nothing," I got no closure from that.
My understanding is that Pantheists believe that there is the universe, and there is a god apart from the universe. OTOH Panentheists believe that god and the universe are one. Personally I tend toward the latter. There are many interpretations of both.
 
All very logical, but logic doesn't warm the heart nor soften the pain of human beings.


This question I can answer from a personal perspective because I have inhabited both camps.

As a non believer I always declared that I would not believe in ghosts until I was confronted by one personally. I refused to fear anything supernatural until I experienced it personally.

To my utter astonishment I did have this experience of that which we call God (the Hebrews refused to speak the name) in the most unlikely setting. It was not in a lofty cathedral, nor atop a mountain gazing at the setting sun. It was in the auditorium of a hotel/motel where I was participating in an inservice for school councillors that lasted for 5 days.

I was there under false colours because I was just a science/maths teacher lacking even one lecture of psychology but the principal wanted to introduce a pastoral care program and she nominated me. The inservice mostly consisted of small group sessions in the motel rooms plus one plenary session per day in the auditorium. It was in one of the plenary sessions during an exercise called a guided walk that I had a most startling experience. Towards the end of it we were prompted to silently ask any question that came to mind and receive an answer.

Before you respond that I was under hypnosis, I will assure you that I was not. I once volunteered to be hypnotised by an entertainer and although I wanted to experience it, I failed to succumb. I resisted the suggestion. Apparently, I do not like losing control of myself.

When prompted to ask the question my response was immediate. Without thinking about it, a question seemed to rush up from the depths of my being. It was, "Am I a worthy person?"

Now you would think that I was looking for affirmation and you would be correct, but the answer was quite oblique. As quickly as the question was formed, the answer returned. The answer to my question was, "We are all unworthy."

My response was pretty much, "What the heck? Where did that come from?"

Two things I am sure of - that was not the answer I was seeking and that it came both from deep inside me and also from without.

From my days in Sunday School as a child I remembered the verse "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3, 23).

This experience shook me to the core. I spent days trying to process it. I tried to explain it away using logic until I had another strange experience that was unprompted and unsought.

One night, less than a week later, I woke from sleep after hearing my name being called. It sounded like my mother calling me to wake up when I was a child. I was rather difficult to wake in those days. Instantly, without thinking at all, I answered, not with, "Yes, Mum" but with the words "Yes, Lord". Then I rolled over and went back to sleep.

The next morning I felt very different. I felt elated and relieved of a great burden. I remembered the bible story of the boy Samuel being woken from sleep by a voice calling him by name. The boy was in the service of the prophet Eli. The story can be found in 1 Samuel 3. I also remember the story of Saul's road to Damaskus conversion from a persecutor to a disciple.

I chose to respond positively to both experiences. I knew that I could rationalise both away using science and logic but I chose not to. From that day to this I have followed the path of faith, my constant companion on the journey has been that which has no name, but which many call God. As we say at the end of each Sunday service - "We go in God, and God in us".

Have I rejected my interest in science? Absolutely not, but I place my trust in something that science cannot and does not prove, nor disprove.

Am I happy? Absolutely yes.
Do I believe that the Bible is to be taken literally? I do not.
I just know that faith in God, by whatever name you choose, is not a mind thing.
It is about trusting with the heart.

Happy for you. I agree it isn't just something one holds as a dry concept. It actually helps make sense of our internal life and gives peace when misfortune strikes as it will no matter what one believes. Christian apologists buy into the mistaken idea that rational arguments constructed of propositions can change people's perspective on all this. According to the Fowler schema Olivia shared the ultimate stage of faith is this:

  • Stage 6 – ”Universalizing” Faith (or ”Enlightenment”). (Later Adulthood). This stage is only rarely achieved by individuals. A person at this stage is not hemmed in by differences in religious or spiritual beliefs among people in the world, but regards all beings as worthy of compassion and deep understanding. Here, individuals ”walk the talk” of the great religious traditions (e.g. ”the kingdom of God is within you”). One good example of this stage in the life of an individual is the life of Count Leo Tolstoy, who in his later years emphasized the importance of equality among people, asceticism in one’s style of living, and the practice of compassion for all (see, for example, his last novel, Resurrection, which caused him to be excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church).

Unfortunately the apologists often act as if the main reason to 'bend the knee' is for the afterlife benefits. By Fowler's schema they'd probably be at stage 3.

  • Stage 3 – “Synthetic-Conventional” Faith (Ages 12 to Adult). This stage is characterized by the identification of the adolescent/adult with a religious institution, belief system, or authority, and the growth of a personal religious or spiritual identity. Conflicts that occur when one’s beliefs are challenged are often ignored because they represent too much of a threat to one’s faith-based identity. This stage (and all subsequent stages) correspond to Piaget’s stage of formal operational thinking, thus making it possible for the adolescent or adult to perceive the divine as an abstract or formless manifestation.
 
My understanding is that Pantheists believe that there is the universe, and there is a god apart from the universe. OTOH Panentheists believe that god and the universe are one. Personally I tend toward the latter. There are many interpretations of both.

That is the difference but I believe you've turned it around. As a panentheist I believe God is in everything but I don't think God just is the sum total of all that exists, there is more but one cannot spell out what that is for the same reason you can't really define God either.. Pantheists are the ones who see it more simply.
 
My understanding is that Pantheists believe that there is the universe, and there is a god apart from the universe. OTOH Panentheists believe that god and the universe are one. Personally I tend toward the latter. There are many interpretations of both.
My information came from conversations from a fellow who as I recall, self-identified as the president of the American Pantheist Society, but it was years ago. As I said, he did admit that some pantheists believe the universe had sentient qualities, which he personally did not. But I am not heavily invested in a specific description. If Christians cannot agree on the characteristics of their god, it would not be surprising that there are differences in the Pantheist Society as well. And of course, there are likely to be "rogue" offshoots in Pantheism, just as their are in other religions.

Here is what the Universal Pantheist Society has to say. The site goes into much more depth, and allows for nuance of opinion within the society:

What is Pantheism? - Universal Pantheist Society
"Pantheism derives from the realization that the cosmos, taken or conceived of as a whole, is synonymous with God - ... In this sense, Pantheism is simple: The Cosmos is divine, and the Earth sacred."
 
Happy for you. I agree it isn't just something one holds as a dry concept. It actually helps make sense of our internal life and gives peace when misfortune strikes as it will no matter what one believes. Christian apologists buy into the mistaken idea that rational arguments constructed of propositions can change people's perspective on all this. According to the Fowler schema Olivia shared the ultimate stage of faith is this:



Unfortunately the apologists often act as if the main reason to 'bend the knee' is for the afterlife benefits. By Fowler's schema they'd probably be at stage 3.
Your analysis is spot on.

Additional - I would like to add that Fowler's work is not confined to religious faith. As he makes clear, everyone places their faith in something. They move through the stages but not all reach the last stage of universalising faith. For some it is particularly upsetting to experience doubt, but before moving to a higher stage, the scaffolding that supported the lower one must be dismantled and rebuilt. Doubt is what drives maturation.

Conversion is nothing more than the transfer of faith from one thing (eg religion) to something else (say, modern science) it is at best a sideways movement. That is, a concrete thinker (Stage 3) will still be a concrete thinker after conversion. To move forward to Stage 4 requires the ability to accommodate paradox.

If you do get hold of a copy of Fowler's book be sure to read the case studies at the back where he talks about spiritual abuse within religion. It is very informative.
 

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