Aunt Bea
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/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/4WOGMFBXBVMKXHPTVMZCWWOETU.jpg)
This little article reminded me of the Wizard of Oz.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-...ith-cars-helicopter-full-cash-ria-2021-08-16/
I'm curious to see if it can be verified.
Will The Taliban Take Kabul on 9-11?
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This little article reminded me of the Wizard of Oz.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-...ith-cars-helicopter-full-cash-ria-2021-08-16/
I'm curious to see if it can be verified.
RadishRose
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All the weaponry we provided for the Afghan army is now in the hands of the Taliban. 20 years was 19 years too many.
AnnieA
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As James Carafano of Fox said, Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return:
No protests, no guns, all peacefully assemble. It took the Taliban no more than 1 week to reclaim what is theirs. True, a few treasonous types who collaborated with the invaders have tried to escape. But in a land of 40 million you don't see too many trying to leave.
Looks like a massive celebration of the "vast majority of Afghan citizens" right there.
Heck of a lot of happy, welcoming women in the pic, too ....Not.oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Looks like a massive celebration of the "vast majority of Afghan citizens" right there.
Recall that the Taliban does not allow cheering even in football games.
Murrmurr
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The Taliban doesn't need the US military, they can get whatever they want from various sources, including China. Just depends on how they "behave" and who they want to align with now.
As for the Afghan people, they live by God's laws. For them, there is no other governance, and they're not likely to soldier for a government of men. The Taliban knows that.
The Taliban believes that even the slightest measure of western influence is unGodly. If western money happens to fall into their hands, that was God's will. Same with western tanks and guns.
Western influences had been creeping into Afghanistan for over a decade, and we wanted to keep it that way. The US was already "buying a friend" in Afghanistan, as it often does around the world, for strategic reasons, of course, but also to ensure they remain a democracy and a western ally. That's why we went in.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Amos’s message stands as one of the most powerful voices ever to challenge hypocrisy and injustice. He boldly indicts kings, priests, and leaders (6:1; 7:9, 16–17). He stresses the importance and the divine origin of the prophetic word (3:3–8); one must either heed that word in its entirety or suffer its disappearance (8:11–12). Religion without justice is an affront to the God of Israel and, far from appeasing God, can only provoke divine wrath (5:21–27; 8:4–10). The Lord is not some petty national god but the sovereign creator of the cosmos (4:13; 5:8; 9:5–6). Amos alludes to historical forces at work through which God would exercise judgment on Israel (6:14). Several times he mentions deportation as the fate that awaits the people and their corrupt leaders (4:3; 5:5, 27; 7:17), a standard tactic of Assyrian foreign policy during this period. Through the prophetic word and various natural disasters (4:6–12) the Lord has tried to bring Israel to repentance, but to no avail. Israel’s rebelliousness has exhausted the divine patience and the destruction of Israel as a nation and as God’s people is inevitable (2:4, 13–16; 7:8–9).
The Book of Amos - Bible Gateway
''Amos has much to say about oppression and the plight of the poor ... when the weak and helpless in society are crushed by the powerful.
"Amos desires only to uncover the evil that leads some to impoverish others for their own gain ... When the Israelites defraud the poor, they just as surely defraud the Lord himself ... dishonesty, corruption, and violence .. brings the overwhelming disaster"
Social Justice in Amos - The Good Book Blog - Biola University
What are those disasters? The nation's youth die in foreign wars, crop failure, weather disasters, widespread disease. Does that sound like today's headlines?
SSDD
Same $***, Different Day
oldiebutgoody
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^ yep
AnnieA
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You keep ignoring the women. Do you think Afghan women willingly "recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time?" ...since you went political in Post #98, the politician referenced dated your statement to 2001.
You also aren't getting the fact that in 2001, Afghanistan had been fighting cyclical civil wars since the late 70s so there was no "exclusive government." If you had grasped that fact, you wouldn't have made the first quote above "exclusive govermnment" absurd statement in the first place.
But: Gold star for you:
....At least you have started acknowledging what was stated much earlier in the thread that the just overthrown Afghan government was corrupt and the Afghan army didn't have motivation to maintain it.
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oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
You keep ignoring the women. Do you think Afghan women willingly "recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time?" ...since you went political, the politician referenced dated your statement to 2001.
You also aren't getting the fact that in 2001, Afghanistan had been fighting cyclical civil wars since the late 70s so there was no "exclusive government." If you had grasped that fact, you wouldn't have made the first quote above "exclusive govermnment" absurd statement in the first place.
But: Gold star for you:
Not ignoring the women. I haven't seen any news reports. How can I quote something that hasn't been reported? If they object to the government, where are their howls of protest?? And if the women are protesting, where are those reports???
Thanks for the Gold Star. Again, I can only comment on what I see. When those reports from Afghani women come in I shall endeavor to comment on them. Ditto for reports on the minority groups such as the Tajik and Hazara. Hopefully, some reconciliation committee will be created and all will be better than what it was for 20 years under the corrupt Bush impose puppet regime.
AnnieA
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The majority of Afghan women who aren't trying to flee at the airport are likely cowering in fear. I'm sure there are a few Taliban women dedicated to their men, but am betting that percentage is basement level low.
Dunno if live footage of rape, floggings, beatings and executions will make mainstream news reports, but that's where you'll find your howls of protest.
Link from femininst.org:
The Taliban and Afghan Women
Excerpts:
The Taliban, an extremist militia, seized control first of Herat (1994) and then Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, on September 27, 1996 and violently plunged Afghanistan into a brutal state of totalitarian dictatorship and gender apartheid in which women and girls were stripped of their basic human rights.
Upon seizing power, the Taliban regime instituted a system of gender apartheid effectively thrusting the women of Afghanistan into a state of virtual house arrest. Under Taliban rule women were stripped of all human rights – their work, visibility, opportunity for education, voice, healthcare, and mobility. When they took control in 1996, the Taliban initially imposed strict edicts that:
- Banished women from the workforce
- Closed schools to girls and women and expelled women from universities
- Prohibited women from leaving their homes unless accompanied by a close male relative
- Ordered the publicly visible windows of women’s houses painted black and forced women to wear the burqa (or chadari) – which completely shrouds the body, leaving only a small mesh-covered opening through which to see
- Prohibited women and girls from being examined by male physicians while at the same time prohibited female doctors and nurses from working
Women were brutally beaten, publicly flogged, and killed for violating Taliban decrees. Even after international condemnation, the Taliban made only slight changes. Some say it was progress when the Taliban allowed a few women doctors and nurses to work, even while hospitals still had segregated wards for women. In Kabul and other cities, a few home schools for girls operated in secret. In addition, women who conducted home schools were risking their lives or a severe beating.
- A woman who defied Taliban orders by running a home school for girls was killed in front of her family and friends.
- A woman caught trying to flee Afghanistan with a man not related to her was stoned to death for adultery.
- An elderly woman was brutally beaten with a metal cable until her leg was broken because her ankle was accidentally showing from underneath her burqa.
- Women and girls died of curable ailments because male doctors were not allowed to treat them. Two women accused of prostitution were publicly hung.
Women in Afghanistan were educated and employed prior to the Taliban control, especially in the capital city Kabul and other major cities across the country. For example, 50% of the students and 60% of the teachers at Kabul University were women. In addition 70% of school teachers, 50% of civilian government workers, and 40% of doctors in Kabul were women.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
I am aware of similar reports - practically the same reports as those of women in Saudi Arabia but nobody complains about them.
However, your complaint was that I ignored the women today, not of what happened in 1994 and 1996. Again, not seeing any reports how can I comment on what is not being reported???
AnnieA
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I already posted the reasons you're not seeing reports . Did you not read the first two paragraphs above of post #136.
Copy and paste from #136:
The majority of Afghan women who aren't trying to flee at the airport are likely cowering in fear. I'm sure there are a few Taliban women dedicated to their men, but am betting that percentage is basement level low.
Dunno if live footage of rape, floggings, beatings and executions will make mainstream news reports, but that's where you'll find your howls of protest.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
OK. I finally got a report on Taliban and women - it just came out one hour ago:
Taliban news conference promises amnesty for those who collaborated with US, asks that people go back to work, asks that everyone rebuild the country, women can go back to work and study (did Saudi Arabia do this as well?), and the press is to remain free. Dunno if any of these pledges will be honored but that's all I have for now.
The report Annie just posted says "likely cowering in fear". That tells me nothing as it is speculative , not factual. It fails to tell us what is going on today. That is why I cannot comment on it.
Taliban news conference promises amnesty for those who collaborated with US, asks that people go back to work, asks that everyone rebuild the country, women can go back to work and study (did Saudi Arabia do this as well?), and the press is to remain free. Dunno if any of these pledges will be honored but that's all I have for now.
The report Annie just posted says "likely cowering in fear". That tells me nothing as it is speculative , not factual. It fails to tell us what is going on today. That is why I cannot comment on it.
AnnieA
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I'll believe it when I see this in action, rather than mere words. And a comment of "likely cowering in fear" is actually speculative not a report; hence the word, "likely." (another Gold star
for you.)There's no point clogging the thread replying to you. Should've learned from your interaction with @Murrmurr above that you're not focused on careful reading of others posts and thoughtful, well-formulated interaction.
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oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Article on the news conference discussed above:
Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women's rights under Islam | Fintech Zoom - World Finance
Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under Islam
The Taliban announcements, short on details but suggesting a softer line than during their rule 20 years ago, came as the United States and Western allies evacuated diplomats and civilians the day after scenes of chaos at Kabul airport as Afghans thronged the airfield.
As they rush to evacuate, foreign powers are assessing how to respond to the changed situation on the ground after Afghan forces melted away in just days, with what many had predicted as the likely fast unravelling of women’s rights.
During their 1996-2001 rule, also guided by Islamic law, or shariah, the Taliban stopped women from working and administered punishments including public stoning. Girls were not allowed to go to school and women had to wear all-enveloping burqas to go out.
“We don’t want any internal or external enemies,” the movement’s main spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said.
Women would be allowed to work and study and “will be very active in society but within the framework of Islam”, he added.
“We will need to see what actually happens and I think we will need to see acts on the ground in terms of promises kept,” U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York in response to the Taliban news conference.
Mujahid said the Taliban would not seek retribution against former soldiers and members of the Western-backed government, adding the movement was granting an amnesty for former Afghan government soldiers as well as contractors and translators who worked for international forces.
“Nobody is going to harm you, nobody is going to knock on your doors,” he said, adding that there was a “huge difference” between the Taliban now and 20 years ago.
He said private media could continue to be free and independent in Afghanistan and that the Taliban were committed to the media within their cultural framework.
He also said families trying to flee the country at the airport should return home and nothing would happen to them.
RESISTANCE
Mujahid’s conciliatory tone contrasted sharply with comments by Afghan First Vice President Amrullah Saleh, who declared himself the “legitimate caretaker president” and vowed that he would not bow to Kabul’s new rulers.
Despite his outspoken comments it was not immediately clear how much support Saleh enjoys in a country wearied by decades of conflict ....
Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women's rights under Islam | Fintech Zoom - World Finance
Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under Islam
Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under IslamTaliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under Islam
- Taliban vow no retribution against soldiers, contractors
- Taliban say women’s rights will be respected within framework of Islam
The Taliban announcements, short on details but suggesting a softer line than during their rule 20 years ago, came as the United States and Western allies evacuated diplomats and civilians the day after scenes of chaos at Kabul airport as Afghans thronged the airfield.
As they rush to evacuate, foreign powers are assessing how to respond to the changed situation on the ground after Afghan forces melted away in just days, with what many had predicted as the likely fast unravelling of women’s rights.
During their 1996-2001 rule, also guided by Islamic law, or shariah, the Taliban stopped women from working and administered punishments including public stoning. Girls were not allowed to go to school and women had to wear all-enveloping burqas to go out.
“We don’t want any internal or external enemies,” the movement’s main spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said.
Women would be allowed to work and study and “will be very active in society but within the framework of Islam”, he added.
“We will need to see what actually happens and I think we will need to see acts on the ground in terms of promises kept,” U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York in response to the Taliban news conference.
Mujahid said the Taliban would not seek retribution against former soldiers and members of the Western-backed government, adding the movement was granting an amnesty for former Afghan government soldiers as well as contractors and translators who worked for international forces.
“Nobody is going to harm you, nobody is going to knock on your doors,” he said, adding that there was a “huge difference” between the Taliban now and 20 years ago.
He said private media could continue to be free and independent in Afghanistan and that the Taliban were committed to the media within their cultural framework.
He also said families trying to flee the country at the airport should return home and nothing would happen to them.
RESISTANCE
Mujahid’s conciliatory tone contrasted sharply with comments by Afghan First Vice President Amrullah Saleh, who declared himself the “legitimate caretaker president” and vowed that he would not bow to Kabul’s new rulers.
Despite his outspoken comments it was not immediately clear how much support Saleh enjoys in a country wearied by decades of conflict ....
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Sorry, but I can only in FACTS, not mere speculation. People there had twenty years to bring about changes. In all that time they never lifted a finger to help the poor. Never even once. They have no one to blame for the return of the Taliban but themselves.
The Taliban never returned, because they never left @oldiebutgoody
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Well, you do have a valid point. The people of Afghanistan never disavowed that government. The puppet regime that ruled from Kabul was imposed by the West. Had the Soviets marched into Washington, DC neither you, nor Annie, nor anyone else have happily accepted their presence or governance. The people harbored the Taliban all these years because they recognized it as their government. Same thing that happened when families harbored Washington and quartered his troops when the Brits invaded.
Alligatorob
SF VIP
I believe that is true, particularly of the more educated and those in the bigger cities. However I just don't see that we can do much about it, maybe try political pressure on the new government when it appears. Not that they will likely be much interested in our opinions. Our problems have come from trying to fix the unfixable, time to stop. Or at least pull back to non-violent approaches. Which are not often successful.
Case in point, it has been a few years since I was in Saudi, but I do still know some people there. I believe the Saudis still treat women badly by our standards; however they have only done a few minor things to make it appear they are changing at least superficially. Hopefully some have helped the Saudi women. We are supporters of the Saudi government and mostly call them allies. I believe the few things they have done have been in response to western pressure. Not that I agree with much of our policy towards the Saudis, but it has sure worked better than in Afghanistan.
AnnieA
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Oldiebutgoodie posted that bit of propaganda, but I do agree with you! Like I told her, I'll believe it when I see it.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
I believe women were finally allowed to drive an automobile just about a year ago in Saudi Arabia. Things are not much better in other Muslim countries. Bad as those conditions are, they are infinitely worse in Brahmin India:
https://tinyurl.com/pzcwapw8
Whatever "evils" the Taliban have imposed pale in comparison to this. MILLIONS upon millions butchered in a campaign that surpasses Hitler's genocide and not one word of protest from the West.
Murrmurr
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In addition to not bothering to go find information available on the internet, you don't seem to understand that Afghani people don't think the way you think.
oldiebutgoody
Senior Member
Well, I'm still waiting for reports that people are protesting the reemergence of that Taliban. Aside from collaborators trying to escape rather than face trial for treason or to accept amnesty, have you seen any protests?
In all honesty, I can't blame the collaborators for trying to escape. After all, that's what Benedict Arnold did. Treason does have its consequences.
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