And the shootings go on and on , and on, and on...

Gary O' said:
OK, being serious;
With technology moving at light speed, why can't we (the US) spend some tax dollars toward the development of a non-obtrusive scanner patrons will naturally pass thru when entering a mall or Walmart?
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I think that the hardening of soft targets like shopping malls, schools, etc... provides some peace of mind to people and creates the illusion of safety but the bad guy will always have the ability to pick the time and the place. I don't see a way to get around that element of surprise other than teaching people how to act/react, evaluate situations, be aware of their surroundings, etc...
 

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

As long as we hold onto defeatist attitudes like "the bad guys will always get the guns" we prohibit ourselves from moving forward. Some bad guys will figure out how to get guns. That doesn't mean we should continue to arm them to the teeth.

Like global warming, the longer we delay serious interventions, the worse these crises become. When confronted with enormous problems, one of the worst strategies is to do nothing. (Offering the ever-useful thoughts and prayers excepted, of course.)
 
Butterfly said:
This is arguable. However, even if true, ATF regulations regarding "destructive devices" regulate these items and tax them as to manufacture, sale, possession and storage; the regulation is quite onerous and expensive and hence nearly impossible to find a place to buy them, even if you could get approved to own them. Perhaps your "everything available" might be true in the sense that such items are not "available" to private citizens.
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I know. but the point is the Constitution might be used as a defense. There are those who do believe everything should be available. They fight the banning of bump stocks which help a semi automatic increase the rate of fire. They fight everything which has to do of banning anything as violating the 2nd Amendment with infringement.
 

StarSong said:
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

As long as we hold onto defeatist attitudes like "the bad guys will always get the guns" we prohibit ourselves from moving forward. Some bad guys will figure out how to get guns. That doesn't mean we should continue to arm them to the teeth.

Like global warming, the longer we delay serious interventions, the worse these crises become. When confronted with enormous problems, one of the worst strategies is to do nothing. (Offering the ever-useful thoughts and prayers excepted, of course.)
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Well, your post doesn't include any useful suggestions; only cutesy quotes. What do you suggest we do about the problem?
 
I think it's safe to say that our government has learned a lesson concerning guns. No recent media stories like the disaster of Fast & Furious.
 
Can we, will we, ever get back to the problem ? That being the mentally challenged / mentally disturbed people buying guns, obtaining guns. The gun is not the problem, those people are the problem. Can we get back to a "tuff-love" approach, and get back to institutionalizing these folks ? And start doing so early , when they start to display questionable behavior. We hear it all the time it seems, after the fact,after the incident, how they displayed this & or that behavior that raised concern among those that knew them.

Yes I know some do not display outstanding behavior of concern until the deed ... but as i read & hear on the news , most of them do.

There is no way all the currently owned guns will ever be collected .... period. And to actually stop gun sales is ludicrous. Thousands of people would be put out of work , not just in the manufacture of the guns themselves, but in the ancillary businesses as well.

The root of the problem is in our society , can we refocus on that, and as a society put our efforts , angers, and emotions there?

Instant fix ? No! but it is a viable start. Arguing over guns, one group fantasizing about getting their way concerning them, is but a huge waste of time. We can't afford the time, these things are happening at a very scary rate. I know folks who no longer 'go-out' , anymore than they must. They're scared. We have never had a time / mood in America like this before, and guns have been here since we have. It was in fact the gun that helped bring us here, keep us here, and repel those that might try to overpower us & take our homeland & our way of life. Hell, it is the gun that fed us for over a hundred of years !

What has changed ? the people have , our society has changed. What has caused this 'mentality' change ? I do not know. But they are out there walking among us. We need to find them, sort them out & contain them, as we once did...................jmo
 
rgp:
Can we, will we, ever get back to the problem ? That being the mentally challenged / mentally disturbed people buying guns, obtaining guns. The gun is not the problem, those people are the problem. Can we get back to a "tuff-love" approach, and get back to institutionalizing these folks ? And start doing so early , when they start to display questionable behavior. We hear it all the time it seems, after the fact,after the incident, how they displayed this & or that behavior that raised concern among those that knew them.

Well there is the gun lobby that is opposed to any kind of control at all. They are opposed to background checks. So how are you going to keep guns out the hands of undesirables when you can even have a background check?
How can you institutional these folks when anytime any thing is proposed like red flag laws is shot down immediately by the gun lobby and the NRA.

When they quote the 2nd Amendment they leave everything out except the "shall not be infringed" part of it. They are radicals. They want their guns and let the chips fall where they may.

Right now Remington is being sued by a group connected to the Newton massacre.

The NRA and the Republicans are supporting Remington.

They can't even let the Newton group have their day in court.
 
On the planet earth, guns are not legally "sold to anyone who wants them, no questions asked, no safeguards or restrictions."
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So then, Win, how do you explain all the shootings committed by mentally disturbed people who DID buy their guns legally? You're getting down into the nitty gritty of California gun law. What about the rest of the country?

Butterfly, of course people are not allowed to go out and buy vials of smallpox virus. I was using that as a metaphor. It might help the gun worshippers see things more clearly if we can, just for a moment, step away from the oh-so-sacred guns and substitute some other item of mass killing.
 
Camper6 said:
rgp:
Can we, will we, ever get back to the problem ? That being the mentally challenged / mentally disturbed people buying guns, obtaining guns. The gun is not the problem, those people are the problem. Can we get back to a "tuff-love" approach, and get back to institutionalizing these folks ? And start doing so early , when they start to display questionable behavior. We hear it all the time it seems, after the fact,after the incident, how they displayed this & or that behavior that raised concern among those that knew them.

Well there is the gun lobby that is opposed to any kind of control at all. They are opposed to background checks. So how are you going to keep guns out the hands of undesirables when you can even have a background check?
How can you institutional these folks when anytime any thing is proposed like red flag laws is shot down immediately by the gun lobby and the NRA.

When they quote the 2nd Amendment they leave everything out except the "shall not be infringed" part of it. They are radicals. They want their guns and let the chips fall where they may.

Right now Remington is being sued by a group connected to the Newton massacre.

The NRA and the Republicans are supporting Remington.

They can't even let the Newton group have their day in court.
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But we do have background checks in place. I support those, but more & more of them, is of no help. IMO that small group is little more than an annoyance.

You said........"How can you institutional these folks when anytime any thing is proposed like red flag laws is shot down immediately by the gun lobby and the NRA."

Lets not wait until they apply for a gun, lets sanction them from society, not just the gun store/gun show.


"Right now Remington is being sued by a group connected to the Newton massacre."

"The NRA and the Republicans are supporting Remington. "

because IT WAS NOT Remington's fault

If I hit & kill you with my truck tonight is it automatically Ford's fault ?
 
rgp said:
But we do have background checks in place. I support those, but more & more of them, is of no help. IMO that small group is little more than an annoyance.

You said........"How can you institutional these folks when anytime any thing is proposed like red flag laws is shot down immediately by the gun lobby and the NRA."

Lets not wait until they apply for a gun, lets sanction them from society, not just the gun store/gun show.


"Right now Remington is being sued by a group connected to the Newton massacre."

"The NRA and the Republicans are supporting Remington. "

because IT WAS NOT Remington's fault

If I hit & kill you with my truck tonight is it automatically Ford's fault ?
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Remington is the scapegoat - just as guns in general are the scapegoats. People know where the deep pockets are.
 
rgp said:
But we do have background checks in place. I support those, but more & more of them, is of no help. IMO that small group is little more than an annoyance.

You said........"How can you institutional these folks when anytime any thing is proposed like red flag laws is shot down immediately by the gun lobby and the NRA."

Lets not wait until they apply for a gun, lets sanction them from society, not just the gun store/gun show.


"Right now Remington is being sued by a group connected to the Newton massacre."

"The NRA and the Republicans are supporting Remington. "

because IT WAS NOT Remington's fault

If I hit & kill you with my truck tonight is it automatically Ford's fault ?
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Well give them their day in court. It's not the business of Congess and the NRA to stick their nose in the Supreme Courts business.

Not automatically is it Fords fault but it could be. All kinds of vehicle manufacturers have been found to be their fault.
 
win231 said:
Well, your post doesn't include any useful suggestions; only cutesy quotes. What do you suggest we do about the problem?
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I think Starsong is saying that the problem must be addressed by first adopting a different mind set. If every idea is immediately knocked down as impractical then not only will the death rate not diminish, it will continue to rise. Things can change if people have the will to change. Do you want things to change for the better?
 
Camper6 said:
Well give them their day in court. It's not the business of Congess and the NRA to stick their nose in the Supreme Courts business.

Not automatically is it Fords fault but it could be. All kinds of vehicle manufacturers have been found to be their fault.
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Only when the collision was caused by a defect or bad engineering which was the proximal cause of the crash. Auto manufacturers have never been held liable simply because they made the vehicle.
 
Camper6 said:
rgp:
Can we, will we, ever get back to the problem ? That being the mentally challenged / mentally disturbed people buying guns, obtaining guns. The gun is not the problem, those people are the problem. Can we get back to a "tuff-love" approach, and get back to institutionalizing these folks ? And start doing so early , when they start to display questionable behavior. We hear it all the time it seems, after the fact,after the incident, how they displayed this & or that behavior that raised concern among those that knew them.

Well there is the gun lobby that is opposed to any kind of control at all. They are opposed to background checks. So how are you going to keep guns out the hands of undesirables when you can even have a background check?
How can you institutional these folks when anytime any thing is proposed like red flag laws is shot down immediately by the gun lobby and the NRA.

When they quote the 2nd Amendment they leave everything out except the "shall not be infringed" part of it. They are radicals. They want their guns and let the chips fall where they may.

Right now Remington is being sued by a group connected to the Newton massacre.

The NRA and the Republicans are supporting Remington.

They can't even let the Newton group have their day in court.
Click to expand...

Liability of manufacturers and sellers of firearms is protected by:

"The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law which protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. ... The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901-7903.
Long title: An Act to prohibit civil liability actions ...
Titles amended: 15 U.S.C.: Commerce and Tra...
Enacted by: the 109th United States Congress"

The premise of the Remington lawsuit to which you refer is that Remington and the seller of the particular weapon engaged in some kind of misleading advertising about the weapon, which the plaintiffs argue puts Remington outside the PLCAA in this instance.

It's not a straight civil liability action, against which the PLCAA would hold Remington harmless.
 
Camper6 said:
Well give them their day in court. It's not the business of Congess and the NRA to stick their nose in the Supreme Courts business.

Not automatically is it Fords fault but it could be. All kinds of vehicle manufacturers have been found to be their fault.
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You are confusing a manufacturing defect (which likely is a car manufacturer's fault) with intentional misuse of a product. How can you blame a car manufacturer for reckless driving? That would be like blaming General Motors for Ted Kennedy's drunk driving that resulted in his passenger's death.
 
win231 said:
You are confusing a manufacturing defect (which likely is a car manufacturer's fault) with intentional misuse of a product. How can you blame a car manufacturer for reckless driving? That would be like blaming General Motors for Ted Kennedy's drunk driving that resulted in his passenger's death.
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This case is all about how they advertised their product.

Remember the tobacco advertising?

Why do you introduce irrelevant topics that have nothing to do with current events?

How can you do anything? It's up to the courts to decide.
 
Butterfly said:
Liability of manufacturers and sellers of firearms is protected by:

"The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law which protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. ... The PLCAA is codified at 15 U.S.C. §§ 7901-7903.
Long title: An Act to prohibit civil liability actions ...
Titles amended: 15 U.S.C.: Commerce and Tra...
Enacted by: the 109th United States Congress"

The premise of the Remington lawsuit to which you refer is that Remington and the seller of the particular weapon engaged in some kind of misleading advertising about the weapon, which the plaintiffs argue puts Remington outside the PLCAA in this instance.

It's not a straight civil liability action, against which the PLCAA would hold Remington harmless.
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It has been ruled they the plaintiffs can have their day in court.
 
Not all people who kill others with guns could be classified as mentally unstable. With notable exceptions, most perpetrators' acquaintances say, "This is shocking! I never would have thought he'd do this - he was a nice neighbor, a bit quiet, but never caused any trouble."

People snap or plan these deeds without much warning. It's beyond me why we continue to allow folks to be armed with military-style weapons KNOWING that this has happened repeatedly and will continue to happen.

Addressing global warming and the need to stem America's gun violence have caught the attention of Millennials (as well as many in other generations) and are apt to be focal points of the 2020 local, state and federal elections.
 
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StarSong said:
Addressing global warming and the need to stem America's gun violence have caught the attention of Millennials (as well as many other generations) and are apt to be focal points of the 2020 local, state and federal elections.
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Hope you are right about that ... time for the mentality of the general population to change course. It's definitely overdue.
 
StarSong said:
Not all people who kill others with guns could be classified as mentally unstable. With notable exceptions, most perpetrators' acquaintances say, "This is shocking! I never would have thought he'd do this - he was a nice neighbor, a bit quiet, but never caused any trouble."

People snap or plan these deeds without much warning. It's beyond me why we continue to allow folks to be armed with military-style weapons KNOWING that this has happened repeatedly and will continue to happen.

Addressing global warming and the need to stem America's gun violence have caught the attention of Millennials (as well as many in other generations) and are apt to be focal points of the 2020 local, state and federal elections.
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I find when it's analyzed that most of these mass shootings have been planned well in advance and the person doesn't raise suspicion because it's obvious.

The person in Texas recently was turned down on a background check. He bought the gun privately for which there is no background check.
 
"Lets not wait until they apply for a gun, lets sanction them from society, not just the gun store/gun show."

You cannot do that easily. To commit someone is a lengthy process.
The best you can hope for at this stage is that it is picked up in a background check.
 
Camper6 said:
Well give them their day in court. It's not the business of Congess and the NRA to stick their nose in the Supreme Courts business.

Not automatically is it Fords fault but it could be. All kinds of vehicle manufacturers have been found to be their fault.
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Doesn't count, you're referring to a faulty vehicle, and I agree. The gun suits are all about the sales of the guns........nothing more.
 
Warrigal said:
I think Starsong is saying that the problem must be addressed by first adopting a different mind set. If every idea is immediately knocked down as impractical then not only will the death rate not diminish, it will continue to rise. Things can change if people have the will to change. Do you want things to change for the better?
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The mind set towards guns is not the problem. The mind set towards killing people with them is the problem.

Hence guns are not the problem.....people are.
 
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