The Inevitable Take Over Of Taiwan By China.

Thanks, Murrmurr. Yikes! I never thought about going back that far.

Oldie, the whole mess with Britain and China started a very long time ago; however, we're discussing what happened in 1997 and afterward. As I see it, if we want to, we can go back to the unification of China and Britain; but I believe that at some point we have to deal with what's going on in the present and its proximate causes.
 
That doesn't mean we'll go to war, Murrmurr. We have ships in the South China Sea and aren't going to war over what China's doing there. Besides, we don't go to war with the big powers; we hold proxy wars.
Murrmurr said:
We are prepared, but we'd rather not. We will if we have to; if Taiwan requests military support. The US and Britain already have ships there and more en route. We've sent diplomats and a military advisor to Taiwan and plan to send a higher ranking military advisor very soon.
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Murrmurr said:
The people of the state of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the federal government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the states, fully justified this state in then withdrawing from the federal Union
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And in 1869 the US Supreme Court ruled in Texas v White that secession was unconstitutional.

Texas v. White | law case | Britannica
 
Dancing_Queen said:
Thanks, Murrmurr. Yikes! I never thought about going back that far.

Oldie, the whole mess with Britain and China started a very long time ago; however, we're discussing what happened in 1997 and afterward. As I see it, if we want to, we can go back to the unification of China and Britain; but I believe that at some point we have to deal with what's going on in the present and its proximate causes.
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The events that occurred in 1997 were fully predicated upon the events that took place in the 1840s when the British navy forced the Chinese government with the threat of imperialistic war if it did not acceded to its colonialist plans. If the imperialists under genocidal Queen Victoria had not undertaken such proto Hitlerian depredations we would not be having such a discussion in the first place.
 
oldiebutgoody said:
The events that occurred in 1997 were fully predicated upon the events that took place in the 1840s when the British navy forced the Chinese government with the threat of imperialistic war if it did not acceded to its colonialist plans. If the imperialists under genocidal Queen Victoria had not undertaken such proto Hitlerian depredations we would not be having such a discussion in the first place.
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And if the Hans hadn't taken over China, none of that would have happened. As I said previously, at some point we need to look at proximal causes.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
That doesn't mean we'll go to war, Murrmurr. We have ships in the South China Sea and aren't going to war over what China's doing there. Besides, we don't go to war with the big powers; we hold proxy wars.
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It doesn't mean we won't, either. But like I said earlier; regarding Taiwan, particularly, I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures, believing their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunification and expansion through less obvious means.
 
Murrmurr said:
It doesn't mean we won't, either. But like I said earlier; regarding Taiwan, particularly, I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures, believing their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunification and expansion through less obvious means.
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Expansion through less obvious means, Murrmurr? I don't understand. They're building islands in the South China Sea and doing their best to keep everyone else out of it. That seems awfully obvious to me!

When was the last time we went to war with a strong country? I believe it was WWII. Everything since then has been proxy wars. China is now too strong; if anything, we'll be in proxy wars against them.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
Expansion through less obvious means, Murrmurr? I don't understand. They're building islands in the South China Sea and doing their best to keep everyone else out of it. That seems awfully obvious to me!

When was the last time we went to war with a strong country? I believe it was WWII. Everything since then has been proxy wars. China is now too strong; if anything, we'll be in proxy wars against them.
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By less obvious I mean non-military; "Grey War".
 
Dancing_Queen said:
And if the Hans hadn't taken over China, none of that would have happened. As I said previously, at some point we need to look at proximal causes.
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The Han conquest pre dates Christianity. Of course, we could also say that if Anglo Saxons had stayed in Europe the Civil war would not have happened. But more to the point is that the real cause of the issue at hand here is the imperialism that took place in the 1840s with China claiming what is rightfully theirs.
 
oldiebutgoody said:
The Han conquest pre dates Christianity. Of course, we could also say that if Anglo Saxons had stayed in Europe the Civil war would not have happened. But more to the point is that the real cause of the issue at hand here is the imperialism that took place in the 1840s with China claiming what is rightfully theirs.
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My point is that the Chinese and the British signed an agreement in 1997. The British were to return Hong Kong and Hong Kong would remain a democracy for 50 years. The Chinese could have refused; they could have negotiated something different as Hong Kong was going back to them one way or another. However, what probably happened (just my thoughts) is that the Chinese decided it was in their best interests to keep Hong Kong the way it was because of its being their financial interface with the rest of the world. That changed and they didn't need it to play that role any longer.
 
oldiebutgoody said:
At present Hong Kong has a legislature elected every 4 fours with an independent supreme court.

GovHK: Residents (Homepage) (www.gov.hk)


That's as free as any country can get.
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They certainly are not as free as any country can get. The CCP is arresting people in Hong Kong left and right, squelching peaceful protests, and disallowing a variety of annual celebrations and commemorations. And they've just started.
 
Dancing_Queen said:
Expansion through less obvious means, Murrmurr? I don't understand. They're building islands in the South China Sea and doing their best to keep everyone else out of it. That seems awfully obvious to me!

When was the last time we went to war with a strong country? I believe it was WWII. Everything since then has been proxy wars. China is now too strong; if anything, we'll be in proxy wars against them.
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According to The National Interest, those islands aren't holding up so well.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ds-are-falling-apart-and-sinking-ocean-132047
 
Murrmurr said:
They certainly are not as free as any country can get. The CCP is arresting people in Hong Kong left and right, squelching peaceful protests, and disallowing a variety of annual celebrations and commemorations. And they've just started.
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We've had similar government misconduct in Minneapolis and in other cities such as Portland, NYC, and Brooklyn. Police gassed innocent bystanders, slashed tires of automobiles, attacked reporters, and brutalized people who were exercising their constitutional rights.
 
oldiebutgoody said:
We've had similar government misconduct in Minneapolis and in other cities such as Portland, NYC, and Brooklyn. Police gassed innocent bystanders, slashed tires of automobiles, attacked reporters, and brutalized people who were exercising their constitutional rights.
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Yes, but the protestors aren't getting jailed en masse for a possible lifetime sentence. I'm not saying that what's going on here is a good thing, but it doesn't compare to what's happening in Hong Kong (although DeSantis and the Florida legislature would probably like it to). I need to stop this or I'll probably get blocked for being political.
 
I'm in Florida and it's time for me to hit the sack. Thank you for some good conversation. Maybe it will continue tomorrow. Good night!
 
People will view things differently but as far as I'm concerned the government is more suppressive here. In Hong Kong the protests went on for months before the police took action. In the USA, people were attacked by the government within hours for using their constitutional rights. It's not a political statement but a fact that anyone can see from watching TV.
 
oldiebutgoody said:
People will view things differently but as far as I'm concerned the government is more suppressive here. In Hong Kong the protests went on for months before the police took action. In the USA, people were attacked by the government within hours for using their constitutional rights. It's not a political statement but a fact that anyone can see from watching TV.
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You won't get an argument on the facts from me, Oldie. However, my opinion is that what's come of both of them is that the Hong Kong people are in a much less democratic situation than are the U.S. ones. That said, the new law in Florida says that if three or more people congregate and there's any violence (not defined) coming from anywhere, all are breaking the law; further, the punishments have been hardened.
 
oldiebutgoody said:
People will view things differently but as far as I'm concerned the government is more suppressive here. In Hong Kong the protests went on for months before the police took action. In the USA, people were attacked by the government within hours for using their constitutional rights. It's not a political statement but a fact that anyone can see from watching TV.
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In the USA people have constitutional rights, including the right to effect change in government and even civil services.
 
Murrmurr said:
In the USA people have constitutional rights, including the right to effect change in government and even civil services.
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This may be so in theory, in other words de jure rights as opposed to de facto . But in actual practice, such "rights" are often mythical. I would post videos of police brutality this past summer from youtube just to prove a point but the admin/mods here would view them as political so it's best that I not post them.
 
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