Free thinkers... are you a free thinker? Are you a free speaker?

Being a free-thinker does not mean you are free to think whatever nonsense you'd like.
People choose what they think, what may be nonsensical others may highly revere to certain people. The theory of relativity is an example. How many people understand Einstein's theory? Are mathematical formulas nonsensical because I don't understand them or perhaps the learning curve for such equations are above my pay grade therefore I cannot and choose not to understand, but it is not nonsense.
 

All this started with:
The issue was about sexual preferences where "Sunny" told Marg being "old fashioned" was nothing to brag about, rather she should be ashamed for her beliefs. Well, One man, one woman WAS the culture here and it's my belief too!
Many cultures around the world, even Utah, have many different beliefs as too harams, plural marriages, etc. Marriage was a necessity to help each other through this life. Marriage and sexuality is changing rapidly.
Why should we feel ashamed to believe "one man one woman'?
Why should we be ashamed because our skin is white?
Why should we be ashamed because we don't prefer deviant behaviors?
There are more but I'll leave the metaphor in the sexual connotation.
Because some people prefer sexual deviations which i deem unnatural, because they prefer wife swapping, orgies, crossdressing, polyamony,
whatever, (I am not familiar with all the terms) over a couple spiritually and sexually expressing their love for each other, it's not right that they IMO shove it down our throats and expect us to either adopt their beliefs or be called racist, homophobe, or some other name.

Maybe we're old-fangled! Maybe we LIKE not accepting what everyone else does! Doesn't mean we're "straight laced".
It just means we make our own path and walk it! AKA "free thinking!"
I think the one calling others names for not believing as they do, should be the one who should be embarrassed.
My question to you, Gaer, isn't are you accepting of these ways, but rather are you accepting that the other person has a right to these beliefs?

As long as we're speaking freely:

I have a problem with the rhetoric that the teaching of Critical Race Theory is the teaching of Caucasians to be ashamed of being White. I'm a White woman in my 70's -- just so that there's no misunderstanding of my motivations in saying this. Critical Race Theory is the teaching of history, economics, etc. with the inclusion of how race impacted and was impacted by that history, economics, etc. in addition to the inclusion of all sorts of other things.

"critical race theory (CRT), intellectual movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that the law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans." https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory

Social scientists have held for a long time, and the Human Genome Project now validates, that race is a social construct. If we want to understand the present, we really need to know the full, not just a part of, history. For instance, there's a reason the Interstate highways were built where they were, but we White folks were never taught about it. I mention this one because it isn't something most people think about, but it was done with race in mind.
 

There are many instances where ulterior motives created and enforced social/civil/financial segregation between racially exclusive populations. Primarily, this may have occurred to maintain the integrity of class structure and privileges there in.

Does skin color influence your view of people? I would like to say no, the truth is I am white and grew up in a predominately white environment; the answer is yes. People of color are confusing to me. I cannot comprehend how life is for them and that makes me sad because I want to understand.

Modern movies about racial injustice seem to have a duel purpose. One, lift the oppressed and shame the oppressor, which in most cases are white people portrayed as unsavory government workers, politicians, landlords and rich business owners.


Why now? What is happening or about to occur to create such a great influx of media for cultural history and racial indifferences.

The media does not haphazardly make available the movies and tv shows we see. It is not perchance Netflix, Amazon Prime and other media streaming movies are being promoted and shown to viewers, It's a conspiracy
 
There are many instances where ulterior motives created and enforced social/civil/financial segregation between racially exclusive populations. Primarily, this may have occurred to maintain the integrity of class structure and privileges there in.

Does skin color influence your view of people? I would like to say no, the truth is I am white and grew up in a predominately white environment; the answer is yes. People of color are confusing to me. I cannot comprehend how life is for them and that makes me sad because I want to understand.

Modern movies about racial injustice seem to have a duel purpose. One, lift the oppressed and shame the oppressor, which in most cases are white people portrayed as unsavory government workers, politicians, landlords and rich business owners.


Why now? What is happening or about to occur to create such a great influx of media for cultural history and racial indifferences.

The media does not haphazardly make available the movies and tv shows we see. It is not perchance Netflix, Amazon Prime and other media streaming movies are being promoted and shown to viewers, It's a conspiracy
I doubt that it's a conspiracy, Ed. In my opinion it's what it always is -- money. They believe it will sell. They probably figure that if they include more of these films, they'll attract and keep a larger audience. That said, there's also a subordinate reason (again, in my opinion) -- they want to be seen as being as inclusive as possible now that this topic is on the front page.
 
Critical thinking can actually be taught, Caroln. I used to teach it to college students along with teaching them how to determine if websites are credible or not. There's a difference between opinion and fact; the problem is that many people don't see that there's a boundary. While anyone is entitled to hold any opinion that he or she wishes, if he wants to discuss it with me, we both need to stand on facts. If she insists on citing opinion or garbage websites as fact, then I simply won't discuss the issue.

As for my being a freethinker -- yes. I do my best to research information from credible sources and then use critical thinking skills to form my opinions. However, I also know that, not only are they opinions, but that it's possible that more information will come to light that will change the known facts. If this happens, I have no problem changing my opinions.
I was only commenting on this statement: Being a free-thinker does not mean you are free to think whatever nonsense you'd like.
Anyone is free to "think" any nonsense they want. No one is entitled to tell anyone else what to "think". I wasn't commenting on your ideas between opinions and facts. If someone voices their opinion, even if you think it's wrong or stupid or nonsense, they have the right to do so. And you have the right to ignore them.
 
This is a timely topic in my life right now! I've always thought I was a free thinker and never followed along with the "norm". I've always been a loner (only-child syndrome, I suspect) but enjoyed being with myself more than I enjoy being with other people because I don't see the world the same way they do and I've always been on the outside looking in.

I get in trouble when I express my views. Then I endure someone's rant or get kicked off of a FB group (haha) because I mistakenly said something that was totally not in sync with their opinions.

I find as I get older (74) that I don't want to be around people (of any age) and I would rather enjoy my own company instead of confrontations. This happened on here today in another group. I expressed my opinion and, WHAM, another member was rude and insulting. I'll save my commenting in the future to a bare minimum. I may be a free thinker, but I'm definitely not a free speaker.
 
This is a timely topic in my life right now! I've always thought I was a free thinker and never followed along with the "norm". I've always been a loner (only-child syndrome, I suspect) but enjoyed being with myself more than I enjoy being with other people because I don't see the world the same way they do and I've always been on the outside looking in.

I get in trouble when I express my views. Then I endure someone's rant or get kicked off of a FB group (haha) because I mistakenly said something that was totally not in sync with their opinions.

I find as I get older (74) that I don't want to be around people (of any age) and I would rather enjoy my own company instead of confrontations. This happened on here today in another group. I expressed my opinion and, WHAM, another member was rude and insulting. I'll save my commenting in the future to a bare minimum. I may be a free thinker, but I'm definitely not a free speaker.
I find this very sad, Colleen. I thought I'd found a site without trolls, but maybe you've found one. I'm on a few forums with some strong opinions with a diversity of them; no one has been rude. I'm not in your shoes; but if it had happened to me, I'd just ignore the person and not let him/her win. This isn't my being judgmental; I'm simply stating what I would do and why -- and, believe me, it's happened often over the years both online and in person. :(
 
Being a free spirited person, I would guess places me in the free thinker column. I'll listen or read and then decide if I think as the author or speaker is in tune with my thoughts on a particular subject. However, sometimes I find there are moments that catch me up short as I hadn't taken a particular item into consideration. Always an eye opener for me and often welcome as I am never too old to learn something new. I remember that situation with Aunt Marg being called out for her so called old fashioned ideas. Well, far be it from me to ever call anyone out being old fashioned or otherwise. I can be a real fuddy duddy with the best of them or as far out as the ether will allow me to travel.
 
This is a timely topic in my life right now! I've always thought I was a free thinker and never followed along with the "norm". I've always been a loner (only-child syndrome, I suspect) but enjoyed being with myself more than I enjoy being with other people because I don't see the world the same way they do and I've always been on the outside looking in.

I get in trouble when I express my views. Then I endure someone's rant or get kicked off of a FB group (haha) because I mistakenly said something that was totally not in sync with their opinions.

I find as I get older (74) that I don't want to be around people (of any age) and I would rather enjoy my own company instead of confrontations. This happened on here today in another group. I expressed my opinion and, WHAM, another member was rude and insulting. I'll save my commenting in the future to a bare minimum. I may be a free thinker, but I'm definitely not a free speaker.
You, Colleen, have captured the very essence of my nature in detail, I am the mirror of yourself, and how refreshing it is to come across others like me. You and I are sisters.

Have always hated crowds, being around people (in general), and have always been at my best and happiest when I'm doing my own thing.

As for our outside view of the world, I wouldn't have it any other way. I recall saying to my husband one day, "I see more in one glance than some people do in their lifetime".

As for being the way I am, I wouldn't have it any other way. I feel blessed, gifted.
 
I guess it depends on your definition of "free thinker". The term was used to describe those, who rejected accepted religious tenets. As an atheist, I fit the bill. Yet, I think a "freethinker" is also one, who generally values his own opinion, over others. That's pretty much everybody. The thing is what you think may not always be true.
 
You, Colleen, have captured the very essence of my nature in detail, I am the mirror of yourself, and how refreshing it is to come across others like me. You and I are sisters.

Have always hated crowds, being around people (in general), and have always been at my best and happiest when I'm doing my own thing.

As for our outside view of the world, I wouldn't have it any other way. I recall saying to my husband one day, "I see more in one glance than some people do in their lifetime".

As for being the way I am, I wouldn't have it any other way. I feel blessed, gifted.
Maybe we were separated at birth...haha :)

I had a hard time going to school because I wasn't like all the other girls. I didn't know how to interact with them and I failed miserably to fit in. It took me many, many years to realize it's OK to be me :) I don't have any desire now to fit in. We live in a senior golf course community but neither one of us are golfers and haven't "joined" any social groups here. Why are we here in this community? First of all, we downsized about 4 years ago and got rid of all the excess work like a pool, fruit trees, rose bushes, 4 bathrooms and huge house built for entertaining. I did nothing but clean and hubby had a lot to maintain outside. Anyway...we decided to get out of town (literally) and move to a quieter place. We got a simple 3/3, 1800 sq. ft. home for a very reasonable price (at that time) that doesn't need much maintenance and we don't have any close neighbors...except the guy across the access road from us. We did put up a fence to give us more privacy.

I guess we're quite anti-social and that's OK with us. When we have talked to a couple of our neighbors, it was evident from the start that we did not have the same values or views of the world so we've kept things on a "waving" basis if we see them.

I'm content to do my own thing. I've quilted for over 20 years and I also do counted cross stitch and crochet (mostly in the winter months). I read a lot and I've quit FB because of things that have happened to me that were uncalled for. I'd rather just be by myself. Going into town to actually go in a grocery store is torture for me. I had to do that today and pick up a Rx for my husband (that's another story) and while I was waiting for the Rx, there was another women there and we chatted a little and I couldn't wait to get away from her. What crazy ideas she had!
 
I find this very sad, Colleen. I thought I'd found a site without trolls, but maybe you've found one. I'm on a few forums with some strong opinions with a diversity of them; no one has been rude. I'm not in your shoes; but if it had happened to me, I'd just ignore the person and not let him/her win. This isn't my being judgmental; I'm simply stating what I would do and why -- and, believe me, it's happened often over the years both online and in person. :(
Want to know the really strange part of this?...I don't even know what I said and I never did get any feedback from the Admin person. I tried to contact her, but she just kept deleting my messages. I've always been very supportive and encouraging to others in this group. This was a cross stitch group for Pete's sake!

I was in another group for a long time that was about my hometown. I loved seeing what was new and there was a lot of nostalgic postings that brought back a lot of good memories from my childhood growing up there. Then one day, there was a posting about the planetarium that had been built in the uptown area. It was awful looking and most people don't like it because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the town so it's called some really funny names. I had commented that I thought it was an eyesore...which it is....and there were a lot of thumbs up. I wasn't being mean....it was just my honest opinion.

Well....I guess I wasn't supposed to have an opinion because this guy commented back to me and said I was an old b...h and I must hate my life and I had no right to try to tear down his memories of his childhood....blah, blah, blah. Why he singled me out from all the hundreds of comments much worse than mine, I have no idea. I blocked him and reported him but I never felt the same about that group again so I unfollowed and unjoined. It was sad because I had belonged to it for so long and it was like I was leaving my hometown forever. Why are people so mean-spirited? He was truly a troll.😢
 
Want to know the really strange part of this?...I don't even know what I said and I never did get any feedback from the Admin person. I tried to contact her, but she just kept deleting my messages. I've always been very supportive and encouraging to others in this group. This was a cross stitch group for Pete's sake!

Well....I guess I wasn't supposed to have an opinion because this guy commented back to me and said I was an old b...h and I must hate my life and I had no right to try to tear down his memories of his childhood....blah, blah, blah. Why he singled me out from all the hundreds of comments much worse than mine, I have no idea. I blocked him and reported him but I never felt the same about that group again so I unfollowed and unjoined. It was sad because I had belonged to it for so long and it was like I was leaving my hometown forever. Why are people so mean-spirited? He was truly a troll.😢
First off, the Admin is not only an idiot, but a rude, immature one.
Second, that guy is a big baby moron.

None of their stupidities has anything to do with you.

PS--I used to do crafts too, but my sight and my trembling fingers make it very hard to be pleasurable anymore. :(
 
Critical thinking can actually be taught, Caroln. I used to teach it to college students along with teaching them how to determine if websites are credible or not. There's a difference between opinion and fact; the problem is that many people don't see that there's a boundary. While anyone is entitled to hold any opinion that he or she wishes, if he wants to discuss it with me, we both need to stand on facts. If she insists on citing opinion or garbage websites as fact, then I simply won't discuss the issue.

As for my being a freethinker -- yes. I do my best to research information from credible sources and then use critical thinking skills to form my opinions. However, I also know that, not only are they opinions, but that it's possible that more information will come to light that will change the known facts. If this happens, I have no problem changing my opinions.

Love this! The only thing I'd change is that I think there are very few unbiased, credible sources. I dig through a lot of sources looking for verifiable information. And then there's the issue of subconscious bias as I dig ...staying aware of that is important.
@Aunt Marg
... do you allow others to intimidate you, even manipulate you into thinking like them...
N.O.
 
Love this! The only thing I'd change is that I think there are very few unbiased, credible sources. I dig through a lot of sources looking for verifiable information. And then there's the issue of subconscious bias as I dig ...staying aware of that is important.

N.O.
And they're getting fewer and fewer, Annie. (sigh) Yes, it's important to look at all sides of an issue -- but from credible sources -- as there's unconscious bias in everything we do. Even when we strictly adhere to the scientific method, there's the bias of "What specific part of this shall I study and how will I design my experiment?"
 
No two people on Earth have the same opinions, or agree on everything. Maybe opinions form because of what we were taught to believe in. If that is so, we need to grow up beyond that conditioning. I one feels that they have a more informed opinion than others, that too sounds a bit ego driven, and needs some consideration. That is the word I was looking for....."consideration".
 
And who decides if what someone thinks is nonsense? Do the nonsense police send out monthly memos? :unsure:
I cannot endorse any rational or irrational thinking as nonsense. Thinking is the gift of reason and purpose within the rational and irrational arena of imagination.

So you two are thinking there is no such thing as a thinker who thinks nonsense? I don't mean to sound flippant, but please give me the address of that planet where no one thinks nonsense. You took the quote out of context which usually means trouble...not always.

The 2nd line explains what nonsense thinking is...It's "thinking" that doesn't use research, logic, reason, and evidence. If nothing else, you can't ignore reason. It's our freedom to use these when forming our thinking and if not used some "thinkers" may not have a clue as to what they are thinking.

And you ask if the nonsense police decide what's nonsense? No, that would be nonsense. The individual who has to listen to it and DOES use reason, logic, etc, decides if it's nonsense or not.
`
 
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My question to you, Gaer, isn't are you accepting of these ways, but rather are you accepting that the other person has a right to these beliefs?

As long as we're speaking freely:

I have a problem with the rhetoric that the teaching of Critical Race Theory is the teaching of Caucasians to be ashamed of being White. I'm a White woman in my 70's -- just so that there's no misunderstanding of my motivations in saying this. Critical Race Theory is the teaching of history, economics, etc. with the inclusion of how race impacted and was impacted by that history, economics, etc. in addition to the inclusion of all sorts of other things.

"critical race theory (CRT), intellectual movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that the law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans." https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory

Social scientists have held for a long time, and the Human Genome Project now validates, that race is a social construct. If we want to understand the present, we really need to know the full, not just a part of, history. For instance, there's a reason the Interstate highways were built where they were, but we White folks were never taught about it. I mention this one because it isn't something most people think about, but it was done with race in mind.
Two problems with CRT; it's called a theory, and (2) it's been misinterpreted and therefore weaponized and politicized.

CRT should be given a scientific name that relates to the actual science, something like Social Science of Race. And schools and workplaces that teach SSR (or whatever) should teach the proven bio-science and the historical social engineering that has resulted in racial injustices, without any bias whatsoever.
 
Two problems with CRT; it's called a theory, and (2) it's been misinterpreted and therefore weaponized and politicized.

CRT should be given a scientific name that relates to the actual science, something like Social Science of Race. And schools and workplaces that teach SSR (or whatever) should teach the proven bio-science and the historical social engineering that has resulted in racial injustices, without any bias whatsoever.
I agree with you on all counts, Murmurr, except one. It's impossible to have no bias whatsoever. Just the fact that there are time limits means that not everything can be taught. That means that one's biases come into play regarding the choice of what should and shouldn't be taught. But I do get your overarching point!

We're at the point in this country where if it's possible to twist the message, the message will be twisted and that's a very sad thing. It's always been there, but it's really bad now. I have a feeling that no matter what anything is called, it will get twisted. I always had difficulty getting my students to understand what a scientific theory is. They'd look at the theory of evolution and think it was something with no basis in fact. A theory is "an accepted hypothesis" (meaning at the very least at the .05 level of confidence) and in order to become a theory, a hypothesis has to go through rigorous testing. But -- the words get twisted.
 
Thinking is the gift of reason and purpose within the rational and irrational arena of imagination. Within the rational and irrational arena of the imagination. I would say that includes nonsense. What is irrational thinking if it is not nonsense?
 


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